That is really sad.

I bought 'the world of goo' for the wii, it's such a good game and only $15 through wiiware...not going to break the bank people!

 

If a person was never going to purchase it in the first place, but then pirates it, can it be considered lost revenue?
If piracy was theoretically prevented and they still didn't go purchase it - no.
Piracy is a far overblown problem. But still sad to see indie developers struggling with a good game.

 

The trouble with such an argument is it becomes very easy to justify fewer and fewer purchases. Oh, I would never buy that program, so it's okay. And I might have been thinking about buying that program, but I decided to pirate it instead. And okay, so I really want to use that, but it's too expensive so I'll just get a cracked version....

If you aren't planning on buying something, there are two conclusions one can come to. One is that you are planning on stealing it. The other is because you don't want it. If you don't want it, then why are you going through the effort to find it and download a cracked version? If you are planning on stealing it, call a spade a spade.

Yes, there is something broken on the other side, too. Photoshop was and may still be the most pirated piece of software out there. People learn to use it, then choose to buy it once they start to make money. Adobe has profited from that. And they would do well to figure out how to legitimize that process (educational copies for cheap: full versions of the software available to learn on, but limited to saving images at the largest web size for flickr so people can do personal work, but not commercial. There are hundreds of interesting business models, unfortunately the carrot and stick method is the preferred version, except they keep forgetting the carrot.

 

I'm not trying to justify piracy: if you download this game and you like it and keep playing it, you should buy it. Otherwise you stole it.
If you download it, hate it, and never play it again, who really cares? A lot of people won't put out $20 to try a game.

I think if nothing else, it's clear this is a grey area - it definitely affects sales and it's almost always morally wrong, but how much it impacts sales is of big question.

 

What about those people who pirate software that is affordable and within their means? I would consider that a loss.

If you play, you need to pay. It's that simple. You can't walk into a restaurant, or a movie theatre and use the same excuse.

When Adobe introduced their software activation scheme in 2005, they almost doubled revenue by 2006 (after paying 3 billion for Macromedia, no less). It has practically tripled by 2008. While it hasn't stopped piracy outright (and is a major pain in the ass for customers), it certainly has helped Adobe regain lost revenues.

In the design industry there are a few firms that I could name that had their entire studio furnished with pirated software. There's a Mac tech in Ottawa, who I also won't mention, that "helps" his customers by installing pirated software on client's Macs as a value-added "service".

Piracy is rampant. People just don't think it's a big issue.

 

Also, lots of programs have demos... so the "hate to pay for something that sucks" idea really doesn't hold a lot of water.

Another excuse is the purposes of education so they can get a leg up. Admittedly, I used to fall in this category and I can empathize. I have pirated software in the past, but I've long-since bought everything that I use today--over $10-15k in programs.

But with tons of opensource/freeware out there that's comparable, there really is no reason to pirate. Every major software package has a free counterpart.

 

Chas I think you mean corollary

 

Or maybe he meant colliery, though I'm not quite sure what coal mining has to do with it.

 

My observation is that there are some pretty impressive mental and ethical gymnastics that people go through to justify piracy. I particularly love the "it's digital and you can make endless copies with a click, so it has no value, so it's ok to pirate it".
I think one should be honest. If you are going to pirate stuff, call it what it is and don't bother trying to justify it.
In my world view I think that when people are smart enough to produce something original and creative, then they should own that thing and have the right to to what they want with it. This may be simplistic, but it's really at the heart of the issue for me. I particularly get concerned for artists and musicians because it is hard enough for them to get established and make a living, and lord knows we need them because what they do represents (IMO) a pinnacle of human achievement.

My 2 cents worth.....

 

Actually Chas Radiohead made more money off In Rainbows than their other albums combined! It was a great success, so was NIN's The Slip.

 

Oops, you missed the entire point.

Yes, Radiohead made a lot of money. But look at the AVERAGE PRICE people paid. It was $2.26.

They made up for it in volume (heh, musical joke there!), but not everybody is bleedin' RADIOHEAD now are they?

It proved -- conclusively -- what I said it proved: that if you let the audience determine the price, only a handful of mega-acts are going to make any money at all. You'll get nothing but guaranteed sure-fire hot-selling pablum (that is to say, even more of it than you get now!).

Currently, the way the "evil system" works is that record companies milk the CRAP out of their hot-selling acts, and use some of that profit to finance artists they are taking a chance on, or artists they think will pay off only over a long haul or in the distant future (for example, Elvis Costello). While there's plenty to criticise about this model, if everyone adopted Radiohead's model of just collecting the cash and then going home, there wouldn't even BE any artist development.

Saying "but Radiohead made a lot of money so the level of piracy was evidently okay" is like saying "one guy won the lottery, so I guess the rest of us should work for free until WE win the lottery!"

 

I'm not trying to justify anything here but, somehow, price does matter at some point.

I know, the more pirated copies are floating around, the higher the retail price will be. And that's a good reason not to pirate it.

But thinking about the 'iTunes way", it's way easier these days to buy a song on iTunes (at the right price) than to bother finding a good version on any torrent sites. You're at a party, you wish to listen to a songs that you don't have on your iPod, fire-up iTunes and your (almost) good top go in 2 seconds flat with a looney. I'm not saying itunes will completely get rid of piracy but a lots of people look for "simplicity" rather than "free stuff". I know I am.

What about the App store success? Cheap games for cheap prices. One click away. That's what iPhone users are looking for.

Let's not forget that Adobe makes money from studios that buy 10 or 50 licenses, not so much from Mr Doe.

Okay, for Mac games, that's a different story (actually, that probably wouldn't be so much different if you had more games available around the corner).


Personally, if I like, I buy.
But if a software cost $400+, unless I really need it (read: for a living), I'll never buy it and I'll never try it either. So no business for me (even if the software or the game rocks). Price *does* matter somehow.

my 2¢

 

I like to say that I own what I have, its a pride thing I guess. Whether that goes for software or hardware.

What I don't like seeing is people pirating because they feel its their right.

I have friends how have no pirated copies of anything except software they are required to use for school. The buy the Microsoft office required, they buy the Photoshop, but they can not afford higher end designed programs that are required for school work. There are "student versions", but either they do not provide full functionality, or the output would be considered unacceptable for prof. standards.

I had actually posted a request regarding torrents and trojans, and was removed, currently awaiting a email from ehmax.

In the higher end, the use of piracy versus paid is probably about 100x, and atleast 10x on the professional level. This is likely do to the fact that it will cost $5000 just for one license of the program. I wonder if companies charged less for these products, there would be less piracy and maybe make more money.

Atleast they should allow a more functional student version, hell even longer trials, or trials with full functionality, so that way student would not have to be as great of part of the piracy problem.

On the lower end piracy being an issue, probably has more to do with people viewing at not being wrong, a somewhat sad sign of society.

On the price issue
Generally I will just wait until the price get low enough to be on my demand curve. This goes for games and applications.

 

While I don't condone piracy I have to agree with screature here, it's a fact of business. The same holds true for the music business and the movie business where piracy is probably just a big of a concern (if not bigger).

Let's put the "lost revenue to piracy" in a real world example ...

You are at the grocery store. Near the meat department they have little samples of something cooking up that looks and smells scrumptious they are giving away for free. In a day they go through hundreds and hundreds of them. The next day they setup the same display but they aren't cooking it up for you to see, they just have little pictures of what it looks like and they charge $0.25 per sample. They sell 10 total. Would they have "sold" hundreds and hundreds the day before? Doubtful.

Not saying it's always like that, but honestly having known a lot of people who pirate software over the years 95% (or more) would not have bought all the applications they pirated. Some? Yes absolutely, the ones that they really really need to get their stuff done. All of it? Not a chance. A lot of stuff is just downloaded because they can, is tried out (or not!) and tossed away or filed somewhere and never looked at again.

There's honestly a lot of software out there that is just not worth the $$ they charge for it. Thankfully these days there's typically also a lot of free/cheap software that fits the bill! In the early days of Amiga and Atari stuff a lot of software developers would give you a copy and ask that if you like and use it to buy it!

 

Not saying it's always like that, but honestly having known a lot of people who pirate software over the years 95% (or more) would not have bought all the applications they pirated. Some? Yes absolutely, the ones that they really really need to get their stuff done. All of it? Not a chance. A lot of stuff is just downloaded because they can, is tried out (or not!) and tossed away or filed somewhere and never looked at again.

That's a really good point, and actually fits in with most people I know (casual home users).

 

At the end of the day, I see no reason why this topic continues to surface, time after time. Those who choose to steal will continue to make that choice, and those who decide to buy will continue doing so, same old, same old. (Nothing anybody is going to say here will make a "switcher" of those belonging to either group)

 

Maybe the "World Of Goo" went bankrupt not because of piracy, but the nasty "I don't think I'd touch it with a ten foot pole" name...

 

You obviously haven't tried it. It's a great game, with fantastic art direction and music to back it up. It may not be your cup of tea, but it is immensely popular.

BTW, the World of Goo developers have not filed for bankruptcy. The publishers have of the PC and Mac versions have.

 

This reminds me of a post from one of Ambrosia's developers. It gives you good insight as to what these guys have to deal with on a regular basis: Ambrosia Times: Bitwise Operator: The Plain Truth About Piracy - Ambrosia Software Web Board

I thought this was interesting:

So, I'm working for this shareware company, and I want to make sure that my job is secure. You have to understand that even a 10% variance in our registrations means that someone may need to start checking the classifieds. At the same time, it's becoming more evident that people aren't just not paying for our software -- they are actually going out of their way to share license codes with others over the Internet. Some ingenious folks have even reverse engineered our software and figured out how to generate their own license codes.
​

 

Demo

Here's the demo for the pirated game in question: Apple - Downloads - Cards & Puzzle - World of Goo

I tried the demo and played it for about 5 minutes before getting bored. Looks great but I didn't really like the concept.

I feel bad for the publisher but I have a feeling whoever created the game is doing quite well. You can't pirate it for Wii unless you modify your system so they must be doing well in sales for that platform.

I think debates on the ethics of piracy are awesome but piracy isn't going away. Businesses have to learn to compete with free.

 

I can't piracy as the reason for their bankrupcy.

It's not like the had 100% of the revenue and then suddening lost 90% of it. Something doesn't add up. Especially for a game that is primarily distributed through download (no inventory, no distibution, no shipping).

I'm willing to wager they made a terrible deal with Nintendo.
Or miscalculation of cost vs sell...
Or just general bad management...

 

nvm

 

What about these stories?

Canadian Study: Piracy Boosts CD Sales | TorrentFreak

paulcanning: How piracy helps business

‘Digital piracy' may benefit companies - University of Oxford

How Piracy Helps Microsoft Make Billions / Infopackets.com

Not saying I agree with these, just posting food for thought.

 

Thanks for proving my point. "Piracy helps huge record companies stay huge," "Piracy helps Microsoft stay #1" "Piracy may help conglomerate entertainment empires stay conglomerate entertainment empires," etc.

Go back and look at what I actually said.

 

So, in other words, you can't defend the fact that only software/entertainment companies should, in your words "have to" put up with piracy. Okay, thanks.

 

chas_m I'm not trying to defend anything, never said I was, but I do try do live with reality. As I asked you and you had no answer for, "what is your solution to deal with piracy?"

 

application created to crack iPhone apps gets pirated itself

Oh, the irony!

An application created to crack iPhone apps gets pirated itself.

From Macworld:

"Crackulous is a free application for jailbroken iPhones that allows you to strip the encryption on iPhone apps bought from the App Store...

...As it happens, some industrious person or persons decided that this sounded like a great business opportunity, so they helped themselves to the Crackulous application, and have started selling it for $10 a pop. Better yet, they added the following warning:

As of right now Crackulous is not free. You may come across websites that claim to have a free version of Crackulous but these versions have viruses which log all your information including passwords, phone numbers, contacts, and send it to people so it’s best to stay away from these shady copies. A lot of hard work and development went in to making this brilliant application. It would be unfair if it was given for free.
​

...Update - It appears that the person behind the fake Crackulous Web site, an anonymous iPhone developer, has put up a blog post explaining his (or her) motivation—to make the Crackulous team see what it felt like to have their work stolen. The post also clarifies certain details—for example, no copies of the program were ever actually sold."

As for the point that most people who steal software don't directly make money from their theft, how would the people who rationalize software theft feel if someone stole your car but didn't sell it to make money, just drove it? (Not the best analogy because a lot of people "own" their car, unless it's leased. Nobody, except the software company which owns the copyright, owns any software; when we pay for software we are buying a license to use the software.)

 

I pay for software but I steal music and movies. Why one and not the other? Hmmm - I think I'm concerned that a pirated copy of software won't work properly. For the longest time I paid for my music and movies too. That all changed about a year ago when I learned how to DL. Up until recently I probably spent 10's of thousands of dollars on records, tapes, VHS movies, CD's and DVD's. Since I started DL'ing I think I've amassed a collection of 20 unpaid movies and 3 unpaid CD's (I record a lot of music off iTunes radio stations with RadioLover) that I might watch/listen to again someday. The other stuff, a lot of stuff, was deleted. Some of it was deleted after a few minutes of listening/watching. Typing that brought Adam Sandler to mind. I'm quite certain Adam Sandler's next movie will be safe from being pirated by me.

While my pirated cyberspace bounty is small I know a guy who claimed to have pirated about 1000 gigs of porn. What the......? Don't all porn movies use one of 3 scripts? Who needs that many versions of the same movie? Anyway, point is, if there is one, does anybody feel sorry for the porn industry losing $$$ due to piracy? Is piracy stifling the creativity of the porn industry just like the software industry (according to some)? It could explain the lack of interesting story lines and on going redundancy.

And what about piracy itself? Pirates have been around forever. Recently it seems pirates have become well liked. Pirates of The Caribbean was pretty popular. Then there's Talk Like A Pirate Day on September 19th. Maybe there's a little buccaneer in all of us, eh (sounds odd as I read it again). In fact stealing in general has always been fairly popular regardless of who's doing it. Governments steal, major corporations steal, minor corporations steal, all types of businesses steal, fund raising organizations steal, churches steal, and of course individuals from all walks of life steal. They steal away into the night, steal kisses, steal glances, steal hearts, steal of a deal, and on and on it goes. In fact the very land on which some of us make our stance against stealing was originally stolen. How ironic.

In closing, since the beginning of time man has been taking more than he has been giving back to that which gives him life - the earth. When you look at it that way we're all a bunch of pirates - aaaaaaaarrrrrrgh

 

I'm quite certain Adam Sandler's next movie will be safe from being pirated by me.

Ah, but there you go. Because Sandler's movies will be safe from pirating by anyone with taste, it's a sure-fire moneymaker for the studio. This means that the next Igmar Bergman or David Lynch *won't* get funding for their project, because "it'll just be pirated and we'll never make our money back."

If you don't think the people who make really good movies don't have to beg and fight a WHOLE HELL of a lot more for financing than, say, Adam Sandler, you know nothing about the film industry and how they capitalise on piracy.

Anyway, point is, if there is one, does anybody feel sorry for the porn industry losing $$$ due to piracy?

At the point they decide it's not worth producing any more of it, I think there are a LOT of people who would be upset.

Is piracy stifling the creativity of the porn industry just like the software industry (according to some)?

Well, yes. It drives down budgets, changes the emphasis, and affects the industry in other ways. Believe it or not, porn films used to have PLOTS. Yes, really! They even used to occasionally do some very funny or wacky/oddball stuff that was enjoyable and refreshing. In short, they used to TRY.

And what about piracy itself? Pirates have been around forever.

You DO know that "digital pirates" have about as much in common with "real" pirates as "tan people" have in common with eskimos?

Governments steal, major corporations steal, minor corporations steal, all types of businesses steal, fund raising organizations steal, churches steal, and of course individuals from all walks of life steal. They steal away into the night, steal kisses, steal glances, steal hearts, steal of a deal, and on and on it goes. In fact the very land on which some of us make our stance against stealing was originally stolen. How ironic.

You stole that from George Carlin.

In closing, since the beginning of time man has been taking more than he has been giving back to that which gives him life - the earth. When you look at it that way we're all a bunch of pirates - aaaaaaaarrrrrrgh

So now you're saying that destroying the earth out of avarice and ignorance is ... okay??

 

I pirate too. I feel ripped off way too often with all the crap out there so I use torrents to preview music. If I like it, I go to the concert or get the album. I only really get a few a year. With movies I only tend to torrent up the ones that I'm curious to check out and if I'm pleasantly surprised I'll wanna check it out in proper quality.

Generally, I try to pay the talented ones. My system isn't perfect, but neither is theirs.

 

I usually pay the 99 cents at the iTunes store because it's pretty darn fast and I know what I'm getting will be good fidelity. I sympathize with the artists and even with the record companies, whom Bill Maher likens to pimps, but without the personality. Do you ever find yourself buying songs on iTunes that you already own on CD because you're just too lazy to find the CD and burn it? Or tending to browse through music that you're already familiar with, probably because you've already purchased it in vinyl record, cassette tape, and compact disc versions? Yeah, I'm pretty sure I've compensated the artist a few times over already.

What I've discovered is that people my age and older (40 plus) tend to have the most moral qualms about downloading for free, but probably do it anyway. Kids these days, on the other hand, seem to have a sense of entitlement about being able to download music without paying for it, even if it's a musician they really like and respect. There seems to be a disconnect between pirating and financially hurting the very artist you say you support.

 

Everyone has their soft spots. Mine is for the small developers and for artists and musicians. All of these folks struggle to make a living at some point, and some more or less forever. It just doesn't seem right to me to take the fruits of their labour and not pay. I'm not judging anyone else, I'm making a decision for me, based on what seems like the right thing to do.

While I have difficulty with pirating, I would much sooner someone was upfront about it than to try to somehow justify it, which is just stupid.