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I am writing this on a Dual 2.0 GHz machine of a clients with 1.5GB of RAM and 2 160GB HD (Striped RAID) and I can say without a doubt that this is THE FASTEST machine I have EVER used. I cannot even finish clicking on all the apps in the dock before they are launched, everybody in the store is absolutly amazed with this unit.

If you had any doubts about the speed of this machine (Which I did after using the 1.6GHz, which is a snail compared to this unit) You can put that to rest, IT ROCKS!


I would love to stay and chat, but umm yah, did I mention that I have a Dual 2.0 in front of me????
:D

[ September 26, 2003, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: MacDaddy ]
 

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Ummm the 1.6 with a RAID launches instantly as well. Zero bounce. 20% bandwidth difference does not make the 1.6 any slouch at all.
What you are seeing is what we've been telling all our clients - getting a G5 without a RAID is not a good move. 120 megs per second with 16 megs of combined cache = :eek:
Don't diss the 1.6 unless you've tried with the same video card and drive subsystem.
Processing has very little to do with "launch" speeds.
Speed is a combination of many factors and Apple has done a terrific job with the architecture on ALL the models. :cool:

Adding a Raptor RAID is very cost effective.
Sure for very heavy work the DP is great but it's

Calling any of these "slugs" is plain wrong. 20% bandwidth difference is very minor and it's the bandwidth that makes this exceptional architecture.....and blindingly quick. :cool:



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macdoc, what is a Raptor Raid?

Please inform (I could google search, but I'm too lazy).
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I did more testing on the machine, and launching is not even close to the only difference I have noticed.
Rendering out an mpeg4 video went MUCH MUCH faster than on the 1.6 (That had more RAM as well), granted the RAID has some great speed advantages, but that is not the only thing making this baby ZOOM

and I am not "dissing" the 1.6 as it is a wicked fast machine, but I was not half as impressed with it as I was with the dual 2
 

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Western Digital has 10,000 RPM SATA drives called Raptors and a pair of them in a G5 completes the architecture.
Unless comparisons are made with the same RAM, video card and drive sub-system they are not useful.

X- Bench results show it clearly - the range of overall performance goes from 175 to 212 on dual 2 gigs.
Our 1.6 comes in at 143 even without the advantage of the better video card.
If you look at the top scores the drive speed and video speed have a huge impact and that's true overall.

The other aspects such as RAM bandwidth are very similar across the machines.
You have control over drives and video card and it's not expensive to get it right.
Speed is a question of eliminating bottlenecks and it's ALL the architecture together.
They're ALL terrifically "quick" when set up right.
Panther just makes it quicker. :cool:



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Yeah the raptors sounds like a nice upgrade for the G5.

I'm just setting up my Dual 2Ghz machine tonight and the though of striped raptors makes me giggle. Mind you that's a bit overkill unless you need the drive bandwidth. Video editing comes to mind.
 

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I'm reading this with interest, as I'm on the verge of buying a duplicate of the Seagate Barracuda that shipped in my G5.
I was looking up "RAID" in the Mac Help menu, and it says... "In most cases, you cannot use RAID on the startup disk."
But that is, of course, what I had in mind. Two identical SATA Seagate drives, installed internally as a RAID array.

Then, there's the question of using a "stripe" or "mirror" scheme. In the case of using the G5 as a digital audio workstation, which would be best? Actually, I'm sure striping is the way to go. I must look up mirroring, and see what that scheme is meant for.

I no sooner had a grip on SCSI voodoo, sold that equipment, and now I'm trying to get ready to use RAID.


-Howie
 

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Just be thankful you only deal with 0 and 1 - 4 and 5 are real confusing.


Now you've heard the good parts of RAID here are some cautions.
YOU MUST BACKUP.
By employing two drives in a striped array you double your chance of hard failure and because stripes are so fast they MUST be maintained.
Buy Disc Warrior, get an external back up drive and clone to it and use an incremental backup application.
Now you should be doing this anyway and the immense performacne gains make it worthwhile but TNSTAAFL applies here so backup and maintenance are critical.

Mirrored is the opposite - no speed gain, extremely safe BUT - you only have the space of one drive to use and if it's corrupt on the first drive it will be corrupt on the second.
We prefer frequent ( hourly for designers ) incremental backups and even double or more incremental ( going back 1 hour, 24 hours and weekly).
Servers at the casual level are ideal for mirrors BUT you alos need a daily backup for them. Mirrors are generally not useful for the individual user.

To answer a couple of questions posed elsewhere on RAIDs.
If you have a AGP Mac adding one 8 meg cache drive is the best performance gain for the buck anywhere. Figure double the stock drive performance,
Adding a RAID in a 66 bus is not useful as the single drive almost sturates the throughput.
Adding an ata 133 card in an array + big time gains but not so cheap. but still for about $450 or so you get 80 megs of space and 110 megs per second through put. Not shabby.

MDDs with the 100 meg rear bus are ideal for RAIDs and you can have a backup in the machine on the 66 bus.

One note if you dual boot OS9/X you cannot use the same RAID on both systems. :( One or the other not both.

BTW all our test drives go out with RAIDs . come try one. :cool:



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Of course rendering is the area that the DP will way outperform the 1.6 but ALL the rest of the numbers are a function of the architecture 800 mHz versus 1000 mHz and SOME are a surprise.

A stock DP shown from Apple shows ( on X bench )
Memory tests at 295 versus 246 on the 1.6
Quartz 203 versus 172
Open GL 174 versus 163 ( a real surprise since it's a faster card in the DP

User Interface 66 versus 67 refresh/sec again a surprise
Disk Test 111 versus 197.5 :eek: for the 1.6 with the Raptor.

The memory number of course reflect the bus speed - the 1.6 is certainly no slouch at a fill rate of 1.5 GIGS per second. There's a huge part of your "quickness"

The Quartz, OpenGL and user interface numbers are all surprisingly similar and all these affect the "quickness factor".

But of course the drives are the big bottleneck and being able to read and write at 100+ megs per second ( 131 per second write speed ) versus 55 or so even on the DP - well think about that all the time every day, caches, saving, opening etc etc.

It's cheap thrills for everyone but the those that need huge processing speed and it really is needed for the DP in heavy use.
The RAID is bult into X - so use it for a few dollars.

And yes you can get about 100 megs per second on any MDD Mac too on the built in bus. The clients just love it.
The latest Macs have big engines - put the transmission in to match.
:cool:

and I'll reinforce it again - these are all extremely quick, rock solid machines, if you are not doing heavy rendering you will not be in the least disappointed in any way.
The current inequality lies with the 1.8. It should be a single 2 ghz with a better video card to be the intermediate model.

If you've got a budget and use in mind balance out the various factors......but in all cases do the RAID.




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BTW - just doubling the stock drives gets you twice the space AND twice the speed.
Since a 160 gig SATA goes for about $250 it's ludricrous NOT to double up the stock drives on ALL the G5's.
That's how our G5 suite's are configured for that very reason.
And for those on a budget, get g5 then the RAM then the drives. Unless you need the heavy lifting at a budget don't opt for the G4 - the G5 has way better architecture.

I disagree that drive bandwidth is of limited usefulness. Bandwidth IS the G5 - a dual G4 out processes a single G5 but the G5 eats it alive in "quickness". That's bandwidth. DOUBLING a key area of performance for a few dollars AND doubling your storage space at the same time is right for EVERY G5 owner.
And if you are a power day to day user it will pay off everyday all the time. :cool:

Trev it's stable eh..just unbelievable for a new machine. :eek:



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Macdoc, how do the RAIDed Raptors compare with RAIDed stock drives?

Have you done any experiments with RAID 0 and 1 together?

Although I'm not in the market, I've always been a fan of RAID as a clever, elegant improvement.
 

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The gain is marginal over the stock 7200s at this point tho it could get better with the OS. Getting the RAID is the important point - the rest is fine tuning.

Level 1 is not a factor. One small down side in the built in software is no partitions on the RAID.

I agree RAID is finally showing it's long term promise.
(R)edundant (A)rray of (I)nexpensive (D)rives
has finally come true - speed for cheap. :cool:



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RAID 1 and RAID 0 together (also known as RAID 10) needs 4 disks, you stripe together disk 1 & 2 and stripe 3 & 4, and then mirror the two stripes together. You get the speed and the redundancy all in one shot, but it is a little more expensive. Of course, the G5 only has two drive bays, but thanks to Apple's software you can RAID together partitions.

When you have a setup like this, it might be best to enable file system journaling which basically prevents corruption at the file system level. That way you wont have to worry quite so much.

The easiest way to enable journaling is with Cocktail.app. Just be warned that it does break a few things, FSCK and Norton Utilities among them.

--PB
 

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What about the Mac Help statement... "In most cases, you cannot use RAID on the startup disk."?

I assume that's not the case in OS X?

-Howie
 

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In case anyone is looking the

Seagate SATA 160GB
SE-ST3160023AS

Is going for 209.00 Canadian on greytech.com, I'm gonna pick one of these up when I get my dual g5.
 

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Well, while I don't have a RAID on my system, yet, I do have the latest Panther build on it....


Actually, that was the first thing I did, I threw in the Panther CD before I even booted it. Wiped the drive completely.

Let me tell you folks, Panther makes this machine SING!

Just a couple of tidbits if you want....
1. Desktop Printing is BACK!
2. Windows resizing is smooth and silky as it should have been in the first place.
 
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