[Trose]

I'm getting extremely frustrated and I don't know what to do. I was used to this type of thing when I ran Windows ME.

I've got a PowerBook G4 (15") and an iMac G5. iMac was running Panther, PowerBook was running Tiger and I had never had a kernel panic. About a month ago we installed Leopard on both machines and now kernel panics happen all the time. I can consistently cause kernel panics on both machines, all I have to do is unplug a USB device that can't be ejected (USB mouse, USB hub, USB keyboard, and USB Wacom tablet).

I'm really surprised I can't find anything about this through quick google searches. This can happen at any time, I can have all programs closed or various programs open. Almost every single time as soon as I unplug a USB device I get a kernel panic.

I'm running the latest software update. Anybody have suggestions? If you want an actual log report, I'll unplug something when I get home and let you know what it says.

 

[monokitty]

Archive and Install Leopard again on just one of the machines to see if the problem lets up (if only one of the machines is having the issue, then select that particular machine) - especially if you installed Leopard originally by selecting the "Upgrade" option.

 

[chas_m]

I second what Lars said -- this isn't a Leopard problem, it's a bad install problem. I unplug such USB devices all the time (keyboards mainly, but other such "unejectable" things as well) and have no issues with this. Furthermore, I've seen the exact phenomenon you describe happen to people running earlier versions of OS X. Sorry you're having this problem.

A log report might be useful, so if you can get that, go ahead and post it.

 

[smellybook]

I'm having the same problem, I thought it was my usb hub,

because it was cheap. I've had 3 kernel panics today trying to re-arrange my usb devices on my new hub.

My usb mouse stops responding all the time but it's plugged directly into the imac.


I can't be bothered to fix this right now, busy with iphone.

 

[smellybook]

How did you install leopard? I did a clean install,

not an upgrade so I don't know how it could be a bad install?


Cheers,

 

[SINC]

this isn't a Leopard problem, it's a bad install problem. I unplug such USB devices all the time (keyboards mainly, but other such "unejectable" things as well) and have no issues with this. Furthermore, I've seen the exact phenomenon you describe happen to people running earlier versions of OS X.

Once again, I state, this IS a Leopard problem.

Same thing happens to me when I unplug my Nikon, after trashing the user icon, which NEVER happened under Tiger.

I am so tired of reading the "it ain't Leopard" and "I know better" attitiude.

Leopard is a bad OS to date, fraught with problems for many users.

Please spare me any further "I'm wrong" posts.

 

[chas_m]

Once again, I state, this IS a Leopard problem.

No it isn't.

As long as you continue to post BS you can't prove, I will continue to correct you. I will, however, endeavour to correct you as collegially as possible. Cheers!

 

[smellybook]

I agree with you SINC, definitely a Leopard problem, never happened

Once again, I state, this IS a Leopard problem.

Same thing happens to me when I unplug my Nikon, after trashing the user icon, which NEVER happened under Tiger.

I am so tired of reading the "it ain't Leopard" and "I know better" attitiude.

Leopard is a bad OS to date, fraught with problems for many users.

Please spare me any further "I'm wrong" posts.

When I ran Tiger, using the same peripherals the only thing different in the equation is Leopard. I still like Leopard and will continue to use it but I've had quite a few problems and I expected better from Apple.

 

[monokitty]

No it isn't.

As long as you continue to post BS you can't prove, I will continue to correct you. I will, however, endeavour to correct you as collegially as possible. Cheers!

That's a bit over the top - Leopard has its share of bugs and some (maybe not all) of SINC's problems are being caused by the new OS - there is little denying it. Your (and possibly mine) fairly problem-free experience with Leopard does not makes it a flawless OS and not all problems can be blamed on a botched install (though perhaps some can). I think a large number of problems may be resolved with the introduction of 10.5.2 and/or 10.5.3.

 

[chas_m]

That's a bit over the top - Leopard has its share of bugs and some (maybe not all) of SINC's problems are being caused by the new OS - there is little denying it. Your (and possibly mine) fairly problem-free experience with Leopard does not makes it a flawless OS and not all problems can be blamed on a botched install (though perhaps some can). I think a large number of problems may be resolved with the introduction of 10.5.2 and/or 10.5.3.

I agree with everything you've said there. I never said Leopard was flawless -- quite the opposite. I never said the ONLY possibility is user error, quite the opposite. I *clearly* (in the post above) indicated that I thought the root problem was a flawed install -- NO FAULT OF THE USER. If I didn't make that clear, I'm sorry.

But there is a distinct difference between a flawed install and a DEFECTIVE PRODUCT. Sinc and Archangel are (incorrectly) claiming that Leopard is DEFECTIVE. If this were true, ALL users of Leopard would experience the defect.

This is patently false and easily disproven, therefore what they are claiming is knowingly FALSE.

If they have a bad COPY of leopard, that's STILL not their fault but STILL doesn't indicated that *Leopard* is defective, it only indicates that THEIR COPY is defective.

I hope I've made myself more clear. They have my sympathy (and my suggestions!) for fixing their issues, but as long as they continue to FALSELY claim that the entire OS is defective, I will continue to correct them, because it's a lie.

 

[Guest]

But there is a distinct difference between a flawed install and a DEFECTIVE PRODUCT. Sinc and Archangel are (incorrectly) claiming that Leopard is DEFECTIVE. If this were true, ALL users of Leopard would experience the defect.

You really don't understand how this stuff all works, do you?

Just WHY would ALL users of Leopard be experiencing the same issues? What's your basis for this statement?

Having personally worked for decades in software development (including several years as an Apple beta tester) I feel pretty confident in saying that you have no idea what you're talking about here. There may (or may not) be some user errors involved in this situation, but your statement is pretty bold and, IMHO has no basis in reality. Just the fact that 2 people are experiencing the exact same issues lends much more towards the fact that Leopard is indeed not perfect and may be at fault in this situation.

 

[monokitty]

chas_m is just very biased toward 10.5 because he hasn't any issue worth noting yet. However, Leopard will behave differently under different hardware, software being used, and so on and so forth, which I think chas_m may be missing when he states that if Leopard had a defect in it, that everyone would be seeing the same issue, not just a few of us. (Which is not always true.)

 

[chas_m]

I'm saying that if LEOPARD caused kps when unplugging usb devices, it would do so for EVERYONE who unplugs usb devices under Leopard. Even if it only occurs to Powerbook users, if it was LEOPARD then it would occur to EVERY powerbook-owning Leopard user.

It's not that hard to grasp, really.

 

[Guest]

Yes, I guess we all know that every piece of hardware is identical, along with every single install method, along with all the software that everyone has installed.

It's not that hard to grasp, really.

Yep that's what I thought too, but apparently there are exceptions to the rules.

 

[MacDoc]

I tend to come down on CM side - in my view it's rarely the code itself. ( of the OS )
It's the code when it can be duplicated reliably or reliably on a specific model - ie that copy issue early on.

Then the code itself has a problem.

When it's not reliably duplicated then I'd say it falls within the variations of

a) individual machine/components spec ( ie some machines simply are flat out ram sensitive tho less so lately ) in combination with

b) failure of third party developers to adhere to guidelines OR Apple to not provide sufficiently inclusive guidelines in combination with the hardware variations.

I'd name that fragility as opposed to robust application/code.
I think Apple apps can exhibit that as well but is that really the OS at fault....I'd say no.
It's the application team.

For instance I'd call Apple Mail in Leopard more robust than previous versions.

Leopard IS ready for prime time.
Not all apps including Apple's are ready for Leopard and exhibit fragility under certain conditions.

IN the real world. Some apps will run regardless of the maintenance or state of the hard drive - others are subject to failure under some conditions. That's a real example of what I would call fragility.

Another might be how well an app deals with low memory or highly fragmented memory.

Can Leopard be made more robust - sure - we're all looking for that but I can say I've not had a Leopard crash period since it came out an even a bit before

I HAVE had a failed drive induced forced shut down but even that is rare ( I recover drives on my machine so that's not all that uncommon ) and in that aspect I would say Leopard is robust against i/o problems.

Unless an app manufacturer warns you against it, move onto Leopard but have that cloned backup, have enough drive space and RAM and do the maintenance before and after.

 

[chas_m]

MacDoc:

Bless you.

 

[Guest]

I guess the 14 or so open bugs (marked as known issues) I have in radarweb for Leopard don't count for much (that are 100% reproducible)

I agree with you though MacDoc, Leopard is ok so far, but let's hope that the 10.5.2. update fixes some of the larger outstanding issues, especially with the pro apps.

 

[chas_m]

I guess the 14 or so open bugs (marked as known issues) I have in radarweb for Leopard don't count for much (that are 100% reproducible)

Sure they count. I've said all over this forum that Leopard isn't perfect (nor will it ever be). I've further taken great pains to say that I know Leopard has bugs in it. Tiger had bugs in it (including 10.4.11). Panther had bugs in it. Windows is one massive bug, it can be argued.

My van has a left turn blinker that only works intermittently. That's a bug, potentially a serious one (in that I could fail inspection or get a ticket). The presence of this fault, however, doesn't mean the van is defective.

 

[Trose]

Fixed!

Just wanted to say that I finally had time to reinstall leopard today. Did an archive and install and everything seems to be dandy now! Thanks a bunch!

 

[MacDoc]

Real world....a bit of "fragility overcome. :clap:

•••

MG - yes when reproducible that would be Leopard code issues as with the lost file copy issue early on.

I'd give Leopard

A....... for speed

C...... for compatibility with Tiger stable applications ( lots of grief for developers ) but that goes with the massive change.

D........ for original install fragility....once more that speaks to size of the beast and complexity and to some machines not liking dual layer DVDs

A....... for robust once it settles down.

A for feature laden.

B+ overall given the scale of the project.