return

2055 Views 19 Replies 8 Participants Last post by Call me 'Sherman', Jun 19, 2007

eatr

Discussion Starter · Jun 17, 2007

I think that "return" should be the default keyboard shortcut to open a folder/document/application/etc as opposed to apple-o... In general, it's much more intuitive, and I find myself needing to open more files with my keyboard rather than renaming them (meaning this change would also raise efficiency). The renaming shortcut could be replaced by apple-r or something similar.
Discuss.

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CubaMark

· #2 · Jun 17, 2007

EDIT: Apologies - I see eatr has been using a Mac for at least two years, so I shouldn't assume a Windows bias. (Then again, I've tried to train Windows users on Macintosh platforms, and I know how hard it is to let go of previously-learned behaviour!).

(pre-edit post below)

Oh dear. Another Windows switcher wanting to adjust the Mac world to their warped perspective.

There are legions of Mac users with more than a decade of experience in pressing <RETURN> to initiate file renaming, and pressing CMD-O to open a folder / file or start an application.

I highly doubt that we'll be changing our behaviour to accommodate mis-educated Windows switchers. (Man, you guys are hard to deprogram!).

Wish there was a red pill to give y'all that would erase all previous knowledge of Windows from your minds...

M

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eatr

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jun 17, 2007

CubaMark said:
Oh dear. Another Windows switcher wanting to adjust the Mac world to their warped perspective.

There are legions of Mac users with more than a decade of experience in pressing <RETURN> to initiate file renaming, and pressing CMD-O to open a folder / file or start an application.

I highly doubt that we'll be changing our behaviour to accommodate mis-educated Windows switchers. (Man, you guys are hard to deprogram!).

Wish there was a red pill to give y'all that would erase all previous knowledge of Windows from your minds...

M

I'm sorry, but I don't appreciate you immediately classifying me as a Windows switcher. I've never owned a Windows computer in my life (except for the month or two month I had a 95 box which inexplicably died out on me, but please let's not get into that). And even then, I was incapable at using computers that I did nothing outside of playing Age of Empires on it (I didn't even have Word or an internet connection for that matter). Right now I'm on a PowerMac G5, and before that the notorious Cube and have worked with OS 9.x through Tiger. I often find myself clicking "enter" whenever a program/file is highlighted, and much to my disappointment instead of opening, the filename becomes highlighted. One thing Microsoft has gotten right is using "return" (well I guess "enter") to open files, instead of a two-button-push shortcut (opening files should be fast!)
Remember: ask questions before you make assumptions and pass faulty judgement onto others.

As a side note, just by looking a short distance to the right, you can notice that I've even been an ehMac member since 2007, and thus would have had time to adjust to cmd-o anyways.

Edit: Thanks for noticing =)

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eatr

Discussion Starter · #4 · Jun 17, 2007

I also thought this warranted an independent message.

One thing that bugs me, is how often computer users (Mac and Windows) use the argument "but all dedicated, longtime [insert OS here] users have been using this [insert random OS related item here] and gotten used to it" (or a variation of that). Just because people have been doing it for ages doesn't make it the best. Even if one is used to one method of doing something, and another more effective method is discovered and implemented, even if they only take to it slowly, eventually the new method will save them time and energy. Also, isn't it a large duty of an Operating System to be friendly and cater to new users (something Apple and we as Mac users tout OSX as being), and even though the changes could cause a slight inconvenience to us at the start, they could save new users much time and pain. I'm not suggesting that we modify OSX to be friendlier to new converts or become more "Windows-like." I just think that we should forget old habits and make the only consideration making the operating system we all love BETTER.

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CubaMark

· #5 · Jun 17, 2007

In my defence, this is not a "problem" that many Mac users raise (prior to your post, I've heard no-one call for the Return-as-Launch feature). It is a common complaint of Windows switchers, which is where my admittedly incorrect assumption arose.

Your suggestion that we "forget old habits" and "make the operating system we all love BETTER" is presumptuous, assuming that your preference is an improvement to the way that we are currently doing it.

I would suggest that most Mac users are predominantly mouse-centric, which would place this on the low-priority agenda anyway. On the rare occasion that I need to launch a program with the keyboard, CMD-O is second nature, as is tapping <RETURN> to rename files. Over the past few hours of computing this evening, I've renamed dozens of files via the quick, easy, one-key-tap. If I had to invoke a key combination of two or more strokes to do the same work, I'd be far from content.

I was going to suggest that you take advantage of OS X's Keyboard preference pane, which allows for the re-assigning of keystrokes to various tasks, but I see that the <Return> key is not available. Perhaps this kind of customization, if opened up a bit, would be an answer for those like you who would like to see that change.

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a7mc

· #6 · Jun 17, 2007

I find this a fascinatingly curious thread. In principle, I have to side with eatr on this... pressing Return seems to make more sense to open a file.

With that said... I've been using Macs for over 6 years now, and I have to admit, I didn't even know that return renamed the file! In 6+ years of computing, not once did I ever need to open a file by pressing enter, and I can't even think of any reason why I would ever need to. Unless I'm really missing something (please enlighten me if I am) I just don't see the advantage of pressing enter. I mean, I have to use the mouse to select the file(s) to open anyway, or at very least, click back to the desktop or folder the file is in... how much extra time does it take to double click the file? 1/20th of a second?

A7

guytoronto

· #7 · Jun 17, 2007

I'm not sure that pressing 'Return' to open a document is the best route.

You have to select a document with your mouse first anyway. Why move your hand from the mouse to your keyboard just to open it?

If you select the document through keyboard navigation, maybe 'Return' would be a viable option.

I've know about 'Return' being used to rename the file for years, but rarely use it. I generally use the click and hover on the name technique.

To CubaMark's remark, there are a few things the Mac OS could learn from Windows (hello maximum window to fill the screen, and any program that does fill the screen, fill it completely, don't leave a 1 pixel edge around the window where I can accidently click away from the program! Aarrgghhh!)

mclenaghan

· #8 · Jun 17, 2007

Is not the magic of the Mac OS the GUI. As was stated most people that use Mac are mouse centric which is what Steve's main idea in developing Lisa and the first Mac. Having been a Mac user since the late 80's. I did not know that return was the shortcut for renaming a file, I just prefected my clicking dexterity so that I could click once to choose the file and once more to rename it with a pause in between them. Since we have to click on the file anyway, what is wrong with the double click that both Mac and Window users have been using since both GUIs were developed. I like the CMD-O to open that is more intuitive since "open" starts with an "o".

The other brilliance of Steve was that he forced all programs to have certain parameters in their operation. The menus are all in a set order various commands are under various menus and their shortcuts are set in stone. Why change what makes the Mac the wonderful world that it is.

So, it is not necessarily a case of Mac users have done it this way or that way for years. It is more a case of it is part of what makes the Mac experience unique and powerful.

I am sure that if you really want to you could create a script to use whichever key you want to do whatever you wanted. Be it "return" is to open a file and cmd-o is to do something else.

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zarquon

· #9 · Jun 17, 2007

I use the keyboard for a lot of file selection and manipulation. I also use it for accessing the menu bar and the dock (CMD+F2 and CMD+F3 respectively). I admit that when I first switched, I expected the return key to launch apps and open files - that only lasted a few weeks. The confusion came with Spotlight. If you highlight an item in Spotlight, you can use enter to launch it. Since I usually invoke Spotlight with the keyboard (so that I can just type in the search info) the difference was immediately noticeable.
Again, I'm over it though.

Z.

zarquon

· #10 · Jun 17, 2007

mclenaghan said:
The other brilliance of Steve was that he forced all programs to have certain parameters in their operation. The menus are all in a set order various commands are under various menus and their shortcuts are set in stone. Why change what makes the Mac the wonderful world that it is.

Not all apps follow these rules though. Photoshop ignores a bunch of "standard" Mac OS shortcuts (like +H to hide). Other apps use default shotcuts for different operations, because they were ported from Win, or they used that shortcut before the OS did.

Z.

mclenaghan

· #11 · Jun 17, 2007

I suppose you are right but I guess I am thinking like a Mac user from early on. I don't use Photoshop and try to avoid as much windows use and there programs as much as I can. Thus my ignorance, but I still feel that was Steve's intentions especially prior to OS 8.x anyway.

Thanks for pointing this out to me.

CubaMark

· #12 · Jun 17, 2007

To CubaMark's remark, there are a few things the Mac OS could learn from Windows (hello maximum window to fill the screen, and any program that does fill the screen, fill it completely, don't leave a 1 pixel edge around the window where I can accidently click away from the program! Aarrgghhh!)

Mark this day, GT, we are in complete agreement, on this particular point. The whole "maximize-to-size-required-by-content" implementation in OS X has *never* worked as I would expect it to. Try hitting CMD-F and doing a search: ever single time (EVERY TIME) I need to reposition the window and grab the lower-right corner to maximize it to my desired window size. That green button is pretty much useless (I think I remember a utility / plug-in / something that modified this behaviour globally in OSX, but it's been lost in the various upgrades...)

Spotlight behaves a bit better in this respect, but in general, if I hit Maximize (Green), I want the app to take over the screen, with the exception of leaving room for my hidden dock to pop-up without impinging on the scroll bars.

I think evidence of a general desire for this functionality comes with the many little apps and hacks that hide the desktop, or other apps, or give you a full-screen writing mode, etc., that focuses the user's attention on the current app.

I'm not such a puritan that I think OS X is perfect as-is: there's lots of room for improvement (like the continuing infuriating presence of that damn spinning beachball - particularly in the Finder). But on the whole, the Mac GUI is brilliantly implemented.

M

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Call me 'Sherman'

· #13 · Jun 17, 2007

A couple people have mentioned that mac users are 'mouse-centric'. perhaps it's just me, but I HARDLY use my mouse, the most usage I get is dragging clips into a timeline in FCP, but general application switching/finder navigation I can do easily with a couple key combinations.

That being said, apple HAS changed things that have been dominant in the system before. An example is the 'COMAND+N' function. Currently, that opens a new window. However, in the older OS (classic) that made a new folder (to do that now you need a 'shift' thrown into the sequence). — I can't tell you how long it took me to adjust to this... I'm still making that mistake. [note that at the same time they made many large changes as it was a complete OS revision.]

I think this could be one of those 'user preference' options that gets thrown in. Most might not use it, but it's there for the few that do want it. (Sort of like Mouse Keys... how many people hear have even heard of that?)

Lastly... how do you rename a folder in Windows then? I'm not ignorant of the Windows OS (meaning, I can navigate my way around it well enough) but how would you rename something?

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a7mc

· #14 · Jun 17, 2007

I've always found these "keyboard purists" to be an odd bunch, personally. They always claim the keyboard is faster, yet in my experience (watching them during presentations), the keyboard is almost always slower. I'd really LOVE to see a keyboard user take on a mouse user side by side to see who is faster.

I'd put my money on the mouse personally.

A7

Call me 'Sherman'

· #15 · Jun 17, 2007

a7mc said:
I've always found these "keyboard purists" to be an odd bunch, personally. They always claim the keyboard is faster, yet in my experience (watching them during presentations), the keyboard is almost always slower. I'd really LOVE to see a keyboard user take on a mouse user side by side to see who is faster.

I'd put my money on the mouse personally.

A7

Well, I used to game a lot, and the gamer sitting clicking the buttons was always decades behind the hotkey-specialist.

Call me 'Sherman'

· #16 · Jun 17, 2007

a7mc said:
I've always found these "keyboard purists" to be an odd bunch, personally. They always claim the keyboard is faster, yet in my experience (watching them during presentations), the keyboard is almost always slower. I'd really LOVE to see a keyboard user take on a mouse user side by side to see who is faster.

I'd put my money on the mouse personally.

A7

I mean, lets compare. opening iTunes can be done a few ways. I personally like COMMAND+SHIFT+A, "I","T", COMMAND+O. Thiss can be done easily through spotlight as well.

I can imagine that the time alone it takes to move the mouse through the list of applications will take longer.

CubaMark

· #17 · Jun 17, 2007

Call me 'Sherman' said:
I mean, lets compare. opening iTunes can be done a few ways. I personally like COMMAND+SHIFT+A, "I","T", COMMAND+O. Thiss can be done easily through spotlight as well.

I can imagine that the time alone it takes to move the mouse through the list of applications will take longer.

Um... well... I usually just click iTunes on my dock... :lmao:

M

jamesB

· #18 · Jun 17, 2007

Call me 'Sherman' said:
Lastly... how do you rename a folder in Windows then? I'm not ignorant of the Windows OS (meaning, I can navigate my way around it well enough) but how would you rename something?

I seem to recall that you'd "right-click" on the file-folder-app whatever, and choose "Rename" from the contextual menu.

jb.

eatr

Discussion Starter · #19 · Jun 18, 2007

CubaMark said:
I was going to suggest that you take advantage of OS X's Keyboard preference pane, which allows for the re-assigning of keystrokes to various tasks, but I see that the <Return> key is not available. Perhaps this kind of customization, if opened up a bit, would be an answer for those like you who would like to see that change.

Yeah, this is probably would be the best overall solution because different people do different things on their computer, and different things are done in different ways (plus everyone has their own personal favourite methods of doing things, whether it be out of habit or what have you). Complete keyboard customization would be the most effective solution because this way, everyone can be happy.

a7mc said:
I've always found these "keyboard purists" to be an odd bunch, personally. They always claim the keyboard is faster, yet in my experience (watching them during presentations), the keyboard is almost always slower. I'd really LOVE to see a keyboard user take on a mouse user side by side to see who is faster.

For me personally, it's not so much that the keyboard is faster, it's just that sometimes I like to sit on my bed (I have a bluetooth keyboard/mouse set) or just lean back in my chair, and neither of these places have a suitable location for a mouse.

Call me 'Sherman'

· #20 · Jun 19, 2007

CubaMark said:
Um... well... I usually just click iTunes on my dock... :lmao:

M

I was generalizing, you don't have ALL of your apps and docs on your dock. Take 'Get Info' for example, 'right click+Get Info' or 'File>Get Info' or COMMAND+I. I don't think you can do it faster then 'COMMAND+I'

I will admit, though, that I use my trackpad for scrolling, I cant stand a none-smooth scroll where I can't control it's speed.

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