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From Poverty to Power - How should a post-2015 agreement measure poverty?



...a poverty measure must identify people who cannot fulfil their basic needs defined globally, i.e. absolute deprivation. Several contributions – Martin Ravallion, Stephan Klasen and Lant Pritchett – make clear that poverty is relative as well as absolute, and that a societal reference point is needed. People should be able to live not only free from starvation and disease, but in accordance with social norms – what Adam Smith labelled centuries ago the ability to appear in public without shame.​
One major strand of debate arises between advocates of an income poverty measure (Ravallion, Pritchett, Klasen) and those of a complementary multidimensional ‘MPI 2.0’ index (Alkire). Pointing to little correlation between measures of extreme income poverty and other types of deprivation, Alkire argues for also focusing directly on multiple dimensions of illbeing – for instance, the lack of adequate housing, improved sanitation, education, and, in extreme cases, the likelihood of survival.​

(Oxfam)
 

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A good friend of mine defined poverty as not being able to afford to own a home and raise a family. This was in Vancouver, and at the time, he figured the 'poverty line' was about $80k/year. This is when he quit science, went into the pizza business, made a fortune, and is now retired.
 

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I used to know someone that was making $50Gs, some how lived in CO-OP housing..
recently - met someone who is collecting welfare and doing side jobs as well not in cash, but receiving a cheque for the side job.. not sure how any one is able to pull this off?

In Canada, there is no reason to live on the streets when they basically will feed you, provide housing and a pay cheque..
 

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I used to know someone that was making $50Gs, some how lived in CO-OP housing..
recently - met someone who is collecting welfare and doing side jobs as well not in cash, but receiving a cheque for the side job.. not sure how any one is able to pull this off?

In Canada, there is no reason to live on the streets when they basically will feed you, provide housing and a pay cheque..
What's wrong with living in a co-op? Plenty of people with real jobs live in them.
 

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A co-op only works if people actually pitch in and do stuff. I've seen many co-ops that were very dysfunctional. Too many people want to at king and no one wanted to actually, you know; do work...
 

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What's wrong with living in a co-op? Plenty of people with real jobs live in them.
maybe I used the term co - op incorrect.. meant to public housing.. [ as in the government gave them housing, when they had a half decent paying job. ]
 

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maybe I used the term co - op incorrect.. meant to public housing.. [ as in the government gave them housing, when they had a half decent paying job. ]
Kind of depends on the setup, since there are lots of different ways in which government funds housing.... in some cases, it's possible to live in such a building but pay full market rent.

Likewise, depending on the setup, you can live in 'regular' housing and have your rent subsidized by the government.

Hard to know what the deal is unless you actually know who pays what for their rent.
 

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peek-a-boo
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Very true. Wasn't there the often incorrect assertion that jack Layton and Olivia Chris were living in subsidized housing, but it turned out they were paying market value?
 

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maybe I used the term co - op incorrect.. meant to public housing.. [ as in the government gave them housing, when they had a half decent paying job. ]
Indeed.

But there are many people with real jobs living in public housing, as others have mentioned, paying market rent.

There's a new public housing building downtown that's actually quite nice, and was designed to be a mixed income residence, with a certain percentage at minimum (I think 30ish?) paying market rent.

It helps to offset the stigma of living in public housing, and also helps to reduce the criminal element that comes with subsidized housing.

60 Richmond is Toronto’s best new co-op: Christopher Hume | Toronto Star
 

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Indeed.

But there are many people with real jobs living in public housing, as others have mentioned, paying market rent.

There's a new public housing building downtown that's actually quite nice, and was designed to be a mixed income residence, with a certain percentage at minimum (I think 30ish?) paying market rent.

It helps to offset the stigma of living in public housing, and also helps to reduce the criminal element that comes with subsidized housing.

60 Richmond is Toronto’s best new co-op: Christopher Hume | Toronto Star
your correct..
when I was young and flush with cash, full head of hair [before marriage and kids ] - long long time ago.. :D
i was looking to invest in a condo.. i could never wrap my mind over myself paying hundreds of thousands in the same building while others got it for free.. I guess I am old school..
 

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your correct..
when I was young and flush with cash, full head of hair [before marriage and kids ] - long time ago.. :D
i was looking to invest in a condo.. i could never wrap my mind over myself paying hundreds of thousands in the same building while others got it for free.. I guess I am old school..
Others may live there for free, but don't get a chance to build wealth through equity.
 

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Others may live there for free, but don't get a chance to build wealth through equity.
Equity - is the key. If you own you care, if it is free you use and abuse, hense was my issue at the time.
 

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In my experience, that's not so much an issue of people on assistance as it is an issue of renters in general.... even people paying a very high rent.
Agreed.. by far I am speechless at some rental homes I have seen, some have no care for others property.
 

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The OP article makes some good points in that what people define as poverty is different depending on where you live.

Disclosure: my family has spend a great deal of time helping out people in other nations. Five years living in the jungle in Papua New Guinea building clean water and electricity systems for the remote aboriginal tribes, as well as raising money, delivering goods, and building schools and dormitories for sick orphans in Kenya. That's not to say "look what we did" or to try to claim any credit, LOTS of people have done far more than we ever could.

All I'm saying is, I've seen what real poverty is, and we simply don't have anything close to it in Canada. Our poverty line here is an unbelievable level of wealth compared to the rest of the world. Even when I go on vacation, I see poverty that most Canadian couldn't comprehend. If you have a roof over your head, ANY regular source of food and/or money, clean running water, electricity, etc, YOU ARE RICH. Canadians on welfare are RICH.
 

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peek-a-boo
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while I wouldn't disagree that our definition of poverty is a much different than in those other countries, I have to say that I'm very glad our definition of poverty is much different and and would be considered 'rich' by other standards.

Dumbing down how we define poverty isn't an excuse to wave one's hands and consider the betterment of it a waste of time.
 

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I agree, being poor in Canada is a lot better than being poor in many other countries. But we are wealthy country. We measure things by different standards here. Basic education, for example, means a very different thing here than in other countries. Healthy means a different thing here. It's not surprising that poverty also means a different thing here.
 

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while I wouldn't disagree that our definition of poverty is a much different than in those other countries, I have to say that I'm very glad our definition of poverty is much different and and would be considered 'rich' by other standards.

Dumbing down how we define poverty isn't an excuse to wave one's hands and consider the betterment of it a waste of time.
I understand what you're saying, but what I mean is, under any definition, we don't really have poverty in Canada. What we have are people with differing priorities. When I see people on welfare with cellphones and big screen TVs (and I HAVE seen many of them), those same people better not tell me they live in "poverty".

I'm not saying that we should not take care of those in need, quite the opposite. I'm saying he absolutely should, and we already do far above and beyond what is needed. We should pat ourselves on the back in Canada for the tremendous job we have already done here in eliminating poverty, and instead focus on helping people who have trouble prioritizing the abundance they've been offered.

The sad part is, the kids who do go hungry because their parents can't (or won't) make them a priority. That's where things get really tricky. How do you make someone be responsible?
 

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peek-a-boo
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I understand what you're saying, but what I mean is, under any definition, we don't really have poverty in Canada. What we have are people with differing priorities. When I see people on welfare with cellphones and big screen TVs (and I HAVE seen many of them), those same people better not tell me they live in "poverty".

I'm not saying that we should not take care of those in need, quite the opposite. I'm saying he absolutely should, and we already do far above and beyond what is needed. We should pat ourselves on the back in Canada for the tremendous job we have already done here in eliminating poverty, and instead focus on helping people who have trouble prioritizing the abundance they've been offered.

The sad part is, the kids who do go hungry because their parents can't (or won't) make them a priority. That's where things get really tricky. How do you make someone be responsible?
That's a good question.

On the subject of welfare recipients with cellphones, sure. I do know what you mean, but don't paint all on welfare with that brush. As with anything, people will take and get what they can. This isn't by any means, limited to welfare recipients. Corporate welfare, is just as bad, but on a far, far lager, and much more damaging scale.

While we concern ourselves with a very small part of the budget, we seem to let the 'bigger fish' go completely un-noticed.

The issue of poverty goes far beyond, what the welfare cheque amounts are.
 
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