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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here is general question for the group. Is it worth buying a new G5 (prices from $2799 to $4199) or stay G4 (1799 to 4761) prices based on apple.ca. Given Apple’s reputation for first Generation computers, is it worth it, or should people wait till Generation 2?
 

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I think people complain about Apple's 1st-generation machines as being "disasters" too often. Personally speaking, if I had the funds, I would of bought (or pre-ordered) a Power Mac G5 months ago. If you really want a G5, get one now. I wouldn't listen to people who claim they are "full of potenial problems." Yes, we've had some bad experiences in the past, but I doubt that's enough to judge that these Rev 1 (A) Power Mac G5's are nothing but secret problems to come.
 

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There are a few issues I have with the G5 (One of my bigger issues can be found in my Editorial on InsideApple.com) but since playing with this machine, it is not that much of a speed boot from the current line of G4's, BUT I believe that the lack of speed it due to the lack of a 64bit OS and applications, how can it perform to half of it's potential without that!
They are sleek and sexy machine, and, though currently minimal, are faster than the G4's, but will be blazing fast soon enough!

IMHO anyway :D
 

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Ahhhh. The joys of 20/20 hind sight, eh...

to Buy or not to buy... that is the dilema... The question should really be when to buy...

I am not a fan of pre ordering anything... sure you get it first, but you can become preoccupied with the delivery date... If you need a new or additional Computer today in order to meet your current deadlines.... then buy now... Dual G4's are not that much slower.....

Can you wait til spring so you can have Panther at the same time? Or do you want to work out and enjoy everything Jaguar offers....

Valid questions requiring personal choice answers...
If these 1rst G5s are going to seem slow next year "IF" the rumours of Dual 3 ghz are true, I would like to wait...

But then My current G4 is fast enough for right now...
 

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I've yet to see any real-world stats on how the G5 stacks up to the G4. Marketing has touted the G5 as this miracle machine that blows the doors off of pretty much any Intel, yet there hasn't been much said from the users. I realise a lot are just getting their G5 delivered (more are waiting), but I've seen a lot of pros mentioning getting their G5... and nothing more.

Initially, when I heard about the new G5 I was really excited... now I'm getting worried that it's just Steve's reality distortion field kicking in.

I want to believe... but there hasn't been whole lot said to make me feel all that comfortable dishing out that much cash for a dual gig G5. Fast or not, the price drops on the dual G4s are much more appealing to me.

That being said... if anyone knows of any benchmarks or performance reports from anyone other than Apple... I'd like to hear more.
 

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You could throw all the bench marks at my face and I could care less why? The G5 is brand new!! You can't put it up against a G4 without taking out all the new technology that is inside the G5 and throwing it in a garbage can. I mean the front side bus speeds on the G5 are worth the $$ over a G4 now.

The G5 is a 64 bit backwards compatible 32 bit machine. Your average use of E-mail, surfing the internet using the iApps won't show much improvement over a G4. Why? They are all still using 32 bit to push along. Once apps are coded for 64 bit then you will see everyones jaws drop and wish they had not bought the latest G4s. Lets say you buy a G4 today for the price they are at. Lets also say that by next spring or summer more then 50% of apps on the mac are now 64 bit and ready to take advantage of the G5. You now have a G4 that is worth less then 50% of what you paid for right now. Hey if you have the $$ to throw around for a G4 instead of a G5, and then decide to buy a G5 in less then a year, by all means go for it. But why?? The G5 will last you several years over the G4 you buy now.

Photoshop users might see the real speed on a G5 and until others develop for a 64 bit machine, I think it is unfair to try and challenge the G4 at 32 bit. Even with the G5 being at 32 now for most apps, it still out beats any G4 for FUTURE technology which could be in less then 6 months time. Keep in mind that the G5 is just starting out, but trust me, when technology catches up with it, you will be sorry that you invested in a G4 instead of a G5.
 

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I'd go for a Dual G4 any day, I'm not too sure about those new Serial ATA drives...But then again...I hope everyone switches...Then I'll be able to buy even cheaper hard drives and memory for the G4. :D

Dave :cool:
 

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Lets also say that by next spring or summer more then 50% of apps on the mac are now 64 bit and ready to take advantage of the G5.
You think...? I hope you're right, but consider there may be one or even two revs of the G5 out by then, what will the original be worth then. The revs will, no doubt, be better, faster and possibly cheaper. Not to mention feeding the software lions (Adobe, M$, etc) in upgrades.

I'm surprised at the milage I'm getting out of my Sawtooth, so I don't think getting a 1.25GHz G4 for $1800 is a bad deal considering I paid $2300 for the 350Mhz Sawtooth almost 4 years ago. The fact that the G4 also boots OS 9 is important to those that still have legacy software that they just can't do without.
 

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I bought the new dual G4 and I wasn't even planning on a new machine for a year or so. Once you take out all of Apple's pricey add-ons, the deal seems impossibly good. It runs very fast and it's pretty quiet, well at least not unbearably loud.

Speaking of pain, I'm now trying to salvage an old B&W Rev 'A' at work. Every time I think my problems are over a new mystery pops up. I don't see how Apple could ever introduce a first version like this one again.
 

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Hey MacDaddy!

I realize that "on the face of it", the gigahertz jump may not seem that big... but apart from the other major architecture overhauls, one must assume that going from a 167mhz bus to a 1-gigahertz bus has to be a huge performance boost... no?

M.
 

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We feel Apple is doing it right by offering a balanced machine as a start point - I really didn't think they would opt for the wide open architecture but I'm impressed they did.
It's a super foundation for a new line but early boxes can be real dicey and the proven, now finally reasonably quiet, G4 towers are excellent value, they work and work faster for cheaper RIGHT NOW and they also will work faster with Panther as X is still "work in progress".
You can see the potential in the openGL speed bumps that everything inside the G5 goes REAL fast BUT the processors are new and the OS and apps are not yet ready to take full advantage of the potential.

You ARE paying for a terrific architecture BUT the single processor means the processing capability when pushed gets outgunned by an architecturally somewaht slower DUAL G4 especially when dollars come into play.
Will the G5s climb beyond the G4s yep.
Are they there now ..nope.
Is the G5 a terrific box for individuals - yep likely the very nicest overall Mac for a person to use ever. Day to day gets terrific benefits.
Heavy lifting however for dollars for now and PERHAPS "no hassles" the dual 1.25s get the nod at the moment.
The dual drive buses and dual opticals are a bonus.

As to value drop in say 1 year - BOTH will likely end in the $1500 range so as is typical with first gen versus last gen the first gen will drop further faster initially.
Look at where a single 733 that marketed for $5000 dropped against the less expensive dual 533. It dropped in half in less than 8 months and dropped under the dual 533 in the long term because the latter was at least 40% more powerful.

Summary, want a terrific personal box - get a G5. Want a great proven production box get a G4.

Need bleeding edge? Wait for the dual G5 which WILL also drop in value BUT you have bragging rights and if you have the kind of biz that needs it you don't mind anyway.
The good thing on the dualie is that it will get faster as the software improves so your useful high end life is longer than with the singles...it's a value curve.
Stability issues usually reside on the upper edge initially.

Maybe Illustrator will be fast THIS time




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Kps,

I'm not sure if what I said is accurate, I was just speculating ;) But I can say that Apple now has serious competition unlike the G4 due to the G5 being 64 bit. I think we will see Apple try to push ahead faster then what they did when the first G4s came out. Or at least I am hoping they do. Apple likes to be the first to set the standards on technology, and going 64 bit is the perfect opportunity for Apple to be number one. The only question is how bad does Apple want it? And how will the rest of the industry respond? Will it be a slow and tedious task porting over to 64? Or has Apple jumped the gun this time and will it take a few years before we see standards? Or that Mac users aren't ready for a 64 bit and it will be awhile before we all adopt? It could be a very interesting next few years :D

Personally if I was looking to buy a G5 I wouldn't spend the money on a G4 and upgrade to a G5 within a year.
 

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Personally if I was looking to buy a G5 I wouldn't spend the money on a G4 and upgrade to a G5 within a year "

Not a bad idea - we figure Feb 2004 gets into the "interesting" zone :D

64 bit is truly the future but it is a gamble if it can all come together quickly to take full advantage.
That said the wide open architecture of the G5 benefits all Mac users NOW, unlike the wait for the G4 Altivec - huge bandwidth is an everyday benefit. :D

Given that the G5s I understand are CHEAPER than the G4s - I gotta think Apple is being chintzy in putting in singles but that just tells you how expensive the REST OF THE BOX IS :eek:

Dream box 2 gigs 400 DDR 2 x 10K SATA drives Raided 2 x 1.8 ghz processors 128 vid card $3k
Rockin :eek: :eek: ....no bottlenecks this time :D



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That't not a pun, it's an analogy! And it is somewhat flawed at that.

While a DP 1.25 may hold it's own against a 1.6 G5, I'd imagine a 1.8 G5 would smack it silly and a Dual 2.0 will take it to school on the short bus. But really it depends on what you are doing and what app you are doing it with. Until the apps are recompiled (that is 'Optimized' in marketing speak) for the G5 you wont see a lot of difference. OS X wont feel a whole lot different if you are coming from a PowerMac G4, but the OS performance difference isn't that drastic between an iMac G4 and a PowerMac G4 either, so I fail to understand some people surprise.

As to 64 bitness of a processor, right now the main advantage would be larger registers (processing more data) and a crap ton more RAM.

For the record, also, OS X will remain 32 bit through Panther (if the dev seeds are any indicator, also OS 10.2.7 is 32 bit), the main differences will be it;s ability to address more than 4 GB of RAM. Realistically, the '64 bit' tag on the G5 is a lot of hype. Bigger advantages at this point include but are not limited to, a super fast, true ddr system bus; great big and fast Serial ATA drives, and AGP8x compatibility.

As to OS X being a "work in progress", I can't help but wonder how people say this as if it were a bad thing.
Until it was discontinued OS 9 was a work in progress as well (and one with a lot more hacks and rough patches as well, I wish I could find that issue of MacAddict that had a geological survey of the two OS's, it was quite effective), it just had 18 years of work, not 6 (or more if you want to count OS X's time as NeXTSTEP and OPENSTEP). Windows is a work in progress, Linux is a work in progress, OS X is a work in progress, and each one gets better with every release.
OS 9 is no longer a work in progress only because Apple considers it dead[1].

Aside from all of that the G5 is truly a forward thinking system, whereas the G4 is not anymore. Sorry, but all it's limitations and with no real indication of Motorola wanting to bother updating it to fix them, the G4 is taking us nowhere fast. The G5 and the next processor from IBM (PPC980) will be able to carry Apple into the future.

If you have no money, get a G4. If you have the cash, get a G5. You wont be disappointed.

--PB

[1] but for classic. They are no longer actively developing it though, as everyone here should know.
 

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Some great posts on this subject so far.

I'm not too worried about the first revision concerns with the G5. Apple made some first revision stinkers for sure, but that was a somewhat different Apple from the current Apple. Look at the iPod, the iApps, the iTunes Music Store, and especially OS X. Apple is on a roll in nearly every way. Call it good karma, or whatever, but Apple's Chi is balanced right now.

The G5 is a gift for Mac fanatics, as is OS X, and both are exciting, evolving, technologies. Come along and enjoy the ride, that's the way I look at it.

The funny thing is, I was very slow to adopt OS X, and felt that Apple was deserting the OS I'd become so attached to. How dare they do that!

Jump to today, and obviously OS X is amazing, and I never use OS 9 anymore. Apple was right, even though I didn't completely trust them back then. I was still thinking about the tenure of Gil Amelio, about the failed Copland OS update, and disastrous junk like the PPC 4400, and the sorry Performa line-up of years gone by. I won't make that same judgment with the G5 though. I'm adopting it now, because like I said, Apple is on a roll, and the G5 is a very big part of Apple's vision. It's a piece of the puzzle that's been missing for too long.

I've even changed my G5/1.8 order, to a G5/dual 2.0 order. Put your money where your mouth is, as it were. =)

-GW
 

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'mac trucks' was the pun, the rest was the analogy...mac trucks are pretty slow though, don't you think?

a dual engine mac truck would probably be faster. but the sportscar has a fuel line to the engine that is 5 or 6 times the diamter of the one on the mac truck. but the mac truck will run on old dirt roads while the sports car will only run on the newer highways...
 

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Mack trucks, as with any heavy duty truck are custom built, you could "gear" the thing for the moon if you wanted. Give it a 500HP engine, a double-overdrive tranny, some low ratio rear-end gearing and 24" rubber and you could have that puppy do 200+km/hr.

But, that's not efficient and that's not what it's designed to do. To get peak efficiency the "rule-of-thumbs" is: gear hi, run slow. It's a workhorse, it's made to pull loads, just as a computer might be "spec'd to perform heavy duty work in a work environment.

Macdoc mentioned it in his first post...a production machine. Given the G5's "newness", I agree with him, that a dual g4 may be a better production machine if you can't wait. Yes, the G5 is an awesome machine and I want one ASAP, but for some applications it may not be the right choise at this time.

I don't need a production machine, and I can wait atleast for Macworld Jan 2004.
 

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Glad somebody got the rather inept pun - it WAS accidental.

The truck analogy goes further in that the G4 chassis has more capacity too in the way of drives and no the 1.8 will not currently outgun the dual 1.25 but it's a very quick machine.

Just like a single 733 with the 133 bus will FEEL faster than a dual 450 with 100 mHz but the dualie easily out renders the single and as PB says - depends on the use - it's rare the processor does much more than twiddle it's thumbs or run fancy screen savers unless you are into heavy lifting. - tIf you are then right now, the truck is the better value.

GW that's a smart move IMNSHO
:cool: G5
G4


[ September 09, 2003, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: macdoc ]



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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Well after reading every ones posting on this thread I started, this is the decision I have come to. I will buy a DP G4 (which is on back order). Not only cause of everyone opinions here, I also will have to keep in mind Apples track record with generation 1 computer. From reading the posts, G5’s will be great machines when the 64-bit software comes out. Now I remember when OS X V1 came out I had so many troubles I got rid of it and went back to OS 9, so panther isn’t tickling my fancy just yet. Also when do you really think third party software will come around? I don’t want to spend money on a computer that they say it can do all that, but only when we make software for it. I think that companies like Apple, Adobe, Alias/wavefront should say, “Yes we will make the software, and it WILL be out by this time”. But lets face it they won’t do that, it to risky. So in my point a view the G5’s will be a great investment in about a year or so, and they will be cheaper. If you need a computer just for everyday stuff like surfing, email and word processing and ya got the cash go nuts and G5 your way till the cows come home. But I need reliability now not in a year or so. Granted once the bugs are worked out with the G5, and there will be some and the software catches up to it I’ll be the first one to go and get it. But until then I’ll have to stay G4. And with all this talks of trucks, now I feel I need to re-look at my vehicle situation (2003 Chevy Blazer…Maybe I need the Avalanche Mmmmmm V8).


Cheers
Guido
 
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