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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Apple had a very slow quarter, particularly towers yet we've seen no fall off at all as we've had 9 bootable towers available.

Do you think or do you have first hand knowledge of the "no 9" impact on purchase decisions.??

Now I know part is lack of speed bump and noise but for Pro shops the noise is minor.

Hard evidence, personal knowledge preferred, well thought out speculation appreciated. :cool:



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Apple would have done well to keep "dual boot" Macs available for a while.
OS X sales not canibalized and those that want to try out X can, and then maybe convince the rest of the shop to do so as well.

All of my clients are staying with 9 and if they are looking to buy machines the FIRST thing I hear is that "It has to boot into 9"

I currently have a client in a predicament. All of their iMacs are OS 9 Macs, but one of the Macs needs some expensive repairs and they are looking at a replacement. What do I tell them - "Sorry, but you will have to learn this entirely new operating system."
Pretty crazy. I am currently trying to convince them to get an older Mac that is OS 9 bootable.
 

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Print shop Prepress Dept. About to go Direct to Plate. Blue & White G3s & Beige G3s run to the Image setter.

75% of Clients are QX4.11 or lower, 2 are QX5, {in 2 years, we have had 3 requests for Indesign resulting in 2 projects...} The rest are a mix of PDF, MS Publisher, Powerpoint, Word or worse...

Some shops have 1 OSX box to play with/get familiar with it.

I have a G4 400 at home that I had to triple the RAM and add a Hd to in order to load OSX 10.1.5, It doesn't work with my scanner, Printer and I can't get ridd of System Fonts.

I know Jaguar fixes a lot of this, but there are still things I am reading about and don't like. I am waiting now for Panther to see if migration is smoother.

I'm too busy right now and the economy is too soft to invest in what is, IMHO an unfinished OS and more powerfull equipment while what I have is in demand and Works....

Personally, I think Jobs murdered OS9 in order to "Force" users into a change they don't want yet.

OS X shows excellent promise, but I'll move when I want to...
 

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we have 7 macs in the studio - 3 are on OSX and each one has had problems since day 1. the other 4 OS9 machines are fine. so far, OSX just seems like a pretty face and isn't yielding better performance or capabilities than my tried-and-tested 9.2.2.
 

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I think if you think OS9 is better, you have some serious issues with OSX. I used OS9 for about 6 months and I could not stand it. Thank god the OSX Public Beta was out then.

I think the biggest problems is learning the new OS, once you get into it there is not a problem. The OS is stable if you stick with what you have. If 10.2.1 works fine for you, STAY with it. Do not upgrade.

I also find that OSX does much better with a yearly or so clean install. I've been using OSX since day one, but I still fail to catch all the little bugs that pop up. But, again, it is stable.. but the performance takes a hit with log files and such.

Also, don't use any of those disk maintenance programs. I find that they cause so many problems out there, I've never had to use them and I've run fsck -u once since I bought my Ti book last year.

Cheers,

RtC

P.S. As for Apple going OS9, I think it had to be done sometime, and they chose now. Good choice!
 

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First of all, I have to say that OSX is the only reason I am using a Mac. I have booted into OS9 to check it out, and can only say, it is an ancient operating system, it feels like Im still using the Mac OS I used in school in 1992. And this is ten years later no inovation. Mac OSX on the other hand, is the first consumer orriented UNIX based system and that is exciting.

And JAMG, How can you describe OSX as unfinshed? Sure nothing is ever "finished" but Mac OSX Jaguar, is a finshed product that has almost no problems. I feel Panther should not change anything, just be a recompile for 64 bit PPC970.

migs, OSX just a pretty face? Yeah Right! Time to get of the crack! OSX simply said could look like crap and I would still use it, why? Because it is incredibly stable, never freezes (for me). Also unlike your beloved OS9, Mac OSX does "multitasking", and currently I am:
1) Listening to music (iTunes)
2) Recording TV (eyeTV)
3) Working on Word document, (while websites are loading)
4) Importing encoding MP3 (iTunes)
5) Downloading files with Limewire
6) Talking on MSN messenger, and ICQ.

With OS9 that would be suicide, the apps would crash or the whole system freeze. Infact, that is worse then windows, with OS9 after an app crashed you have to restart the system.


I guess what I meant to say is: I support apples descion on making new Macs non-os9. And for those that say classic Mac OS is better go back to the 80s. Maybe Atari is better than PS2, Xbox?? Because OSX is the future, and finally also the present!
 

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"1) Listening to music (iTunes)
2) Recording TV (eyeTV)
3) Working on Word document, (while websites are loading)
4) Importing encoding MP3 (iTunes)
5) Downloading files with Limewire
6) Talking on MSN messenger, and ICQ."


Wow.... That's far more demanding than a prepress dept... How do you do it?

Did you use a head hunter to find this job? I don't think I've seen ads for self entertainment, Data entry, pirating/porn searches and chatting....

Cool Career..... dude!!!!

{I am constantly amazed at how personal people get if you don't measure up to their recent purchases....}
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thankyou JAMG couldn't have said it better.


"Insert clevrname" .....millions of Mac users are doing all that and more at the same time on 9 and running stable. Even Apple itself thought at best 20% of it's 25 million user base would be moved to X by January.

That wasn't the question and since you know nothing of 9 it would be hard for you to give first hand knowledge.

The fact that you bought because of X IS useful and pertinent information and for consumers and those who support consumer machines X is wonderful.
•••••

Rick in some industries it's not amatter of choice but necessity to stay on 9 - X simply will not work.
Peter has clients with driver issues for the prepress RIPs as well as Quark issues.
Most have a box or two and are playing with X and nearly all use it at home.

One major client has finally switched but runs Quark in Classic - since he has dual 1.25s with max RAM and arrayed drives he is getting by but his chief Photoshop guy is still unhappy about the slow finder/screen performance compared to 9. :confused:

I switch back and forth but the main work gets done on 9 as X is simply to slow and still has holes for the work flow I use.
My daughter loves X and I love it for her as it's stable.

I posted the thread not to debate merits ( there have been lots of debates here on X versus 9 ) but to determine a possible cause for slow tower sales.
Could be
a) not enough benefit
b) too loud
c) no OS 9 boot
d) slow economy
or a combination of all three but I suspect X only has an impact as our sales of 867DP dual boots have not slowed at all and it's been the best selling unit we've ever had desptie the noise.


More comments/insight appreciated



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Actually Im self employed. I sell and buy items online, mainly antiques. And, YES, this is a job and is very demanding since I have to work from 9-5 and also be online 3 hours at night (1-4am) to be in contact with suppliers overseas. So yes, It may be more demanding than running a prepress dept.

Btw, I was in no way attacking you, just felt your opinions are wrong.
 

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insertclevername

I have 2 issues with your last post...

1. "I was in no way attacking you, just felt your opinions are wrong"

Opinions can not be "Wrong".... Conclusions can be wrong.
How I "feel" is something you can disagree with, but you can not debate... Poor choice of words....

2. I sell and buy items online, ... It may be more demanding than running a prepress dept.

Don't even go there..... Sales is a completely different career with different skills and stresses, but don't compare web surfing, MS word and negotiating a deal with design, production, IT, Flightchecking, troubleshooting and fixing the work of countless clients of varying skill and knowledge using 10 or 15 different software applications on Mac and PC under evertightening deadlines and shrinking profit margins......
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
"With OS9 that would be suicide, the apps would crash or the whole system freeze. Infact, that is worse then windows, with OS9 after an app crashed you have to restart the system."

See this is where you went wrong. I do everything you do - we run MacDoc the way you run your online biz with lots of multiple things happening at once, faxing, printing ( want to try that in X ) multiple Online functions, burning CDs, transferrring on the network, listening to iTunes 20-30 apps open and functional all at once 1800x1300 desktop space...and all happily on 9 because it's quicker than X.
As anyone who has visited MacDoc knows I multitask constantly using little bits of time when web pages are loading, a printer is warming up to slip in other tasks.

9 will release the occasional crash of an old app - I use Netscape 3 for a specific function and it is flaky but I can option escape every single time with no hiccups to other apps and just restart Netscrap.

BOTH OSes hang badly on Firewire and network transfer issues and X can be even worse to get working again than 9 on certain events.

Your work and my work are similar - 9 works for both - neither of us do the level of processing - not even close - that a graphics house undertakes.
We DO do far more different tasks as the same time than many graphics stations so the needs are different.

We see and deal with hundreds of clients weekly - as many that are just getting to OS9 as are moving to X. .

8.6 and even 8.1 was rock solid for some.

The post did not ask which was better - you are welcome to start another thread on that.

The post asked about first hand knowledge of the situation regarding X only machine purchases.

JAMG may have been a bit sarcastic but to dis the very foundation of the Mac community which is desktop publishing, and which is extremely demanding, would likely get you a raft a snarky comments most anywhere.

Many of our clients and we ourself run substantial home office setups with very sophisticated tech structures in place. Mind bending the size and sophistication of some home based businesses and all made possible by Macs running OS8 OS9 or X..

X is the future but it's a work in progress. Hence the questions where this post originally started.



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Re: all the negative comments towards OS 9 by 'insertclevername'. I'm running both 9 and X-jag on my B&W 350 with 384 mb of ram and I love them equally. Multitasking is done on both and I have equal successes and failures on both. Why? I need to upgrade my computer.

With that said....

Macdoc, my feeling regarding purchases of new "OSX only" is that I greatly fear being stuck with a bloated OS that takes way too much CPU for basic functions. It actually takes SECONDS for iMovie 3 interface to draw on my machine. This is without having loaded a project or doing any editing!

Also, in the few scary situations that I've had with Jag so far, booting into 9 or off my 9 emergency startup disk is the only way I've been able to recoveand/or continue working on projects.
 

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Macdoc...saying that apple expected only 20% of its 25 million users to be using osx is not really correct, since out of that installed base im sure many computers are too old to run osx. If you had the number of (newer...after imac) macs you would get a better picture.

Im not saying that OS9 is bad, I just feel there is no point of making it bootable since you can use os9 apps under classic with practically no problems.

JAMG, yeah, I meant "I was in no way trying to affend you, just happen to disagree."

Truth be told, This topic changed my mind on a few things and think that maybe a better idea would be to let people order os9 bootable macs from the apple store but the standard would be non bootable.

Also, I am looking at Mac OSX from the perspective of a Linux user (for last 4 years) and have perhaps become accustomed to some issues found in both osx and linux. One noticable "issue" being slower scrolling/mouse/window...overall slower gui performance than windows or Mac 0S9.
 

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I still know many people that use OS 9 and love it, so don't even use X yet. I think that if Apple is trying to move to X, they should make sure the programs that people use the most, have moved upto it or not.
 

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This is a pretty pointless and boring thread you have going here people. I wish to add nothing to it.

I would how ever like to point out that in my opinion 'oryxbiker' has the funniest avatar of anyone on the forum.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Hmmm too bad, I wish you had added nothing to it and gone on to be ignorant elsewhere.

The post poses a valid question that affects many Mac users and potential buyers and Apple's own strategy.

If, as you say, you have nothing to add and find it boring...then get lost....with our sincerely grateful approval :rolleyes:

•••••
insert ........again you show you don't understand the issue - many OS9 apps do not work in emulation.
Certainly coming from a Linux/Unix background X is far more welcoming despite it's issues.
It is a more mature OS but early versions changed much of what was loved in the Mac OSes from the past. It's getting better but still foreign turf for many

But the slow response for those used to 9 is a real problem and there are amny printing and scanning issues unresolved.

That speaks to your other point - "unusable on many installed Macs". That in itself creates a barrier to switching to X. With "X only" boxes Apple pushes many users who want a faster machine to go to the used market for a dual boot...that way they can transition at their own speed.

I'm just trying to get a feel for why the towers in particular were such slow sellers for Apple. I suspect the X only is an issue in that.

Machines like iMacs and iBooks aimed more at the consumer did not show the same decline as "X only" does not represent a real problem there. X is great for the new Mac owner and the average consumer/office/home/casual content creator.



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I use both OS 9 and X. I bought a dual boot just to be on the safe side, and because I was used to it, but OS X was where things were going, and the beige I had,although upgraded, did not use X smoothly. I still use OS 9,for OmniPage 8, and an early version of MacSpeech ( I type slowly) I like the fact that I can use DiskWarrior on 9 to fix X if and when I need. My HP 750 printer/scanner does not work well with X, but OK on 9. My other use is VPC for some apps I need that are not in Mac. But for all else, I use X. (probably about 85% of the time. I love how it does not crash!!!!! When OS X first came out I read a lot about it and the advice from my Mac supplier ( MacDoc) was to not convert over till the bugs were worked out. Good Advice. Jaguar for me fit the bill. If, however, Apple had suddenly withdrawn 9 capability, I might not have bought. What harm would it do to let dual booting last an other couple of years?
 

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PowerMac sales have been going down for quite a while now (1999 to 2000 was the last time PowerMac sales actually went up, and it wasn't a significant increase), so there are probably larger issues at hand than Apple simply dropping support for OS 9.

As for the DP867 machines selling well, I'm not sure how much of that is the fact they can boot OS9 and how much of it has to do with other factors (such as they're a great value if you're looking for a dual processor PowerMac).

I personally don't care for Mac OS 9, but I can understand the reluctance of people who don't want to switch. We're still supporting Windows 95 as a deployment platform here (even though it's a huge pain in the butt), and it's been out for 8 years now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Yeah Thom, Jag was certainly the first "useful" version and it gets better but it's certainly no less buggy than previous releases of OS - just a different set of issues.

I think two years might be long but then having a couple of machines in each category remain dual boot for a bit longer I think would entice more users to migrate instead of forcing the choice.

Having the 2 X only and 2 dual boot Powerbooks is comfortable right now even tho many PB owners can migrate.
No choice in the matter is irksome and I don't think keeping some dual boot in the line would hurt sales - might even help.

We sold 3 86DPs today to a client who could not and would not move to X and just slipped in under the wire.
Had the 867DPs not been available they would have gone used.
Not what Apple is looking to achieve.




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insertclevername said:
"I'm not saying that OS9 is bad, I just feel there is no point of making it bootable since you can use os9 apps under classic with practically no problems."

Not quite. Many of the most CPU instensive applications either do not run at all in OS X, or do so poorly in comaprison to their OS 9 equivalent.

For instance, I use ProTools on 9. The OS X version was just released in January and it clearly is not ready to handle the needs of the entire installed user base. (Many believe that Digidesign pushed the program out early b/c Apple was cancelling OS 9. All the people who are buying it now are really the beta testers.)
 
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