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I'm speculating over the performance of 10.3 and the G3 processor. The G3 processor, is, for the most part, an ancient thing. However, it still has to be supported because Apple still has G3-based iBooks (now @ 900 MHz). So my question is - will a powerful G3 processor, specifically the 900 MHz clocked one, be able to run 10.3 well (assuming it has 32 MB + of VRAM for Quartz Extreme)? I know that 10.3 is optimized in one way or another for the G5 (PPC 970) processor, but will that kick G4, or even worse, G3 users out of the "good performance" line?
 

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Tritium Glow
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Apple being a hardware company first and foremost and all other things considered...I think 'Panther' will run in 'cripple' mode on a G3...but then you never know with Stevo.
 

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I'll let you know. Early adopter that I am, I'll have Panther installed on my 300mhz iBook (288 RAM, 4meg VRAM) the day it comes out. Should be interesting.... :D

M
 

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Hopefully I'll upgrade to some type of G4 by the time it's released... :confused:
 

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Could we see a G4 300 or 400 in the iBook just after the annoncement from Steve then the G3 could no longer be supported under the G3. I doubt this situation would happen, but you never know with Steve and as mentioned, Apple is a hardware company.

Cheers,

RtC
 

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Rick said:
Could we see a G4 300 or 400 in the iBook just after the announcement from Steve


We could, but really a 400 MHz G4 would be a step down from a 900 Mhz G3, due to the cache differences.

Also, the G3 isn't really an "ancient" thing at all, in fact it is quite a good processor, and gets better with every revision. If an App is not optimised for the G4 (read: Altivec) then a G3 can hold it's own quite nicely.

So no, I dont think that Panther will run in Cripple mode just because a machine might have a G3, because that would be ridiculous and stupid of Apple. Their business sense may be clowded, but it isn't non-existant. THe limiting factors on hardware will probably be pretty much the same as they are for Jaguar: What video card you have, how much RAM you have, and what size/speed of hard drive you have.

--PB
 

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A G4 300/400 in an iBook? That would make the freakin things as valuable as a brick, not to mention the PC crowd falling off their chairs laughing at the speed. The next rev of the iBooks should see a new design and G4 processors (around 800 MHz I'd think). All depends on whether G4 prices bottom out with the intro of the G5. Plus, there is headroom in the G4 processors to 1.8 GHz (supposedly) so they have some legs yet.

As for CubaMarks iBook, it'll be good for OS 10.8! Go Mark, go.
 

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Tritium Glow
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Let me define "cripple mode"...

Take my G4 350 MHz "Sawtooth" tower...great machine still, but with Jaguar, no Quartz Extreme. Sure, I could get a new vid card, but the fact remains that the stock hardware is no longer capable of running all of the os's features. It's a gentle push to consider NEW hardware.

With Panther....it's anyone's guess, we'll know on Monday what the min specs are, but I'll bet it'll be a (let's hope) gentle push to the new G5.

EDIT: I just remembered how to spell "gentle".... :D

[ June 22, 2003, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: kps ]
 

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I know what you mean. I have an 800MHz TiBook that's just over a year old, and it can't take full advantage of the FireWire 800 and AirPort Extreme code that's built directly into the OS's kernel modules. Nor can I use the Inkpad feature they went on about last summer without buying additional hardware.
 

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I doubt that Apple will put a G4 in the iBook. Makes no sense right now. The G3 900s are fast. Will there be a 1Ghz in the G3? sooner than a G4 300-400 --> That's such an antiquated chip. But I am curious to see what the performance of Panther will be in the G3 environment, esp for die hard Pismo owners. As the world turns... monday we'll see.

H!
 

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There must be revisions of the G4 processor such as the G3 processor has been revised as time goes on. I bet you could see a G4 400-867 in the iBook sometime that has improve cache and such, but the Powerbook needs to see the new PPC 970 chip prior to the iBook being converted.

Hell, I think Panther will be the end to the iBooks honestly, with three models of Powerbooks, why do you need the iBook around anywho? Lower the price of the 12" Powerbook, or have a lower spec model for students and the iBook becomes history...

Cheers,

RtC
 

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Tritium Glow
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RtC, I don't completely dismiss what you're saying...a low end G4 iBook would make perfect sense for Apple's educational market. The 867MHz chip being a good candidate as it's also used in the 12" Al book.
 

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*hugs ibook*

it'll be ok lil' guy, you'll be able to run panther just fine, i'm sure.

*cover's ibook's ears*

could you guys please not talk about this in front of him? you're upsetting him.

p.
 

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For those who are wondering, the Current G3, called Sahara, is slated to go to 1Ghz, the next one on IBMs roadmap is called Gobi, and will be from 1GHz to 1.5Ghz and double both the FSB speed and the L2 cache size (to 1MB, a significant upgrade).

The next version after that, Mojave, will reportedly add Altivec as well, and go up and over 2 Ghz.

--PB
 

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Why add the Alvitec instruction set to the G3 when you already have the G4 with the Alvitec? That does not make sense in my mind, why not just move to the G4 processor? Of course, all this also is based on the fact that either IBM or AMD will be providing a new 64 bit processor to the Mac community. I do agree with you guys that the G3 could be improved as time goes on, but why would you want to use such an old chip? It is like taking a Pentium II and just overclocking and adding more MMX type stuff to the chip...

Alas, long live the Powerbook, and sorry for upsetting your iBook.. I did not do it on purpose. I would also like to mention that all this is only my personal opinion, it is not based on anything besides that...

Cheers,

RtC
 

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You would use a Mojave G3 over a G4 because it:

a) is smaller
b) costs less (from what I understand)
c) runs cooler
d) would perform better[1]
e) isn't stagnating [2]

[1] The Mojave G3 will have a 200 MHz FSB and 1 MB L2 cache on chip, the fastest G4 has a 167 FSB and a 256K l2 cache on chip. Also [2] Motorolla has been letting the line stagnate somewhat, and probably once Apple switches to another primary supplier (read: IBM) Motorolla will slow down production even more, if not just sell it off.

--PB
 

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I think the iBook has a great future. Apple seems to have hit a chord with schools and will not want to pull out of that market. Being able to provide a low-end portable while keeping the powerbook line at the head of the innovation spectrum is a useful strategy.

And I am not sure I agree that OS X has made older hardware that stagnant. My iMac DV SE 400 runs OS X 10.2.6 pretty well. Sure its slower than my 1 GHz powerbook but its certainly useable. It runs OS 9.2.2 faster but its too much hassle to keep switching and my kids use iTunes 4 and OS X versions of everything. It even runs Bluetooth with the USB dongle. Not much point to Airport Extreme in older machines since most 802.11b is not the bottleneck in bandwidth. As for FW800, there's not too much advantage in the available drives just yet. Maybe 25% speed increases. If you *need* that hardware, you probably should upgrade the computer.

P.S. One way to increase OS X performance on earlier machines (actually, all machines) is to add lots of RAM. Probably the best bang for the buck in terms of performance boosters.
 

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Sounds lame but I think it will be the opposite.
Does anybody out there remember how damn bad OSX was on a G3 system when it was introduced?10.1.5 made huge improvements on speed and stability and 10.2 even further improved speed etc.
Now I know this is a totally new OS but so was 10.2.I don't have much,B&W 400 w/384 RAM and a 16ATI and it runs great.I really don't think Jobs will make such major changes as to abandon all the G3 machines,that would be a huge mistake as people who can't afford a G4 or G5 go with a high end G3 and really,that's pretty much the mainstream.I think it will run fine.
 

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Plus, installing the latest and greatest version of the OS is almost as good as getting a new computer.... And you don't fell left out by System Update.

Besides, in 16 hours time people will be wondering how the heck they are possibly expected to wait until September for all of the goodness in 10.3 Jobs RDF will be putting out megaflops.

P.S. It's nearly 2 am and there are no Time Canada-like revelations. Not that I'd expect Time to be doing anything for the WWDC but the security has been extraordinarily tight (excepting the web page snafu).
 

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To clarify, I meant that the development of the Motorolla PPC G4 was stagnating, not that OS X or older hardware in perticular. I find that OS X runs fine on my iBook 600 with 8 MB Rage 128, and ran passably on my iMac 333. RAM helps a whole lot. ;)

--PB
 
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