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Just wanted to seek any experts' opinion and see what can be done.

I recently received a few Interac E-Transfers from some friends I don't know so well, and before accepting the money, I called TD Bank to ask how it worked. TD said that it is fully secure, the money is first verified that it is in the seller's account and then once you accept the funds, it is fully your money, in your account, ready for use, and, most importantly, IRREVERSIBLE. I asked, "Are you sure it is irreversible? There is no way for the sender to get the money back?" and the TD operator said, "Yes, it is irreversible. The only way for the sender to get the money back is for YOU to manually send it back to them, otherwise it is YOUR money."

I withdrew and spent the money.

Now I received a call from TD saying that those were "fraudulent funds" and they will be reversed, and I will now owe them the amount. I said, "No way! I had expressly called you before accepting and a TD representative said that with an Interac E-Transfers, once I accept it, it becomes MY money, irreversible, and I expect TD to keep their word. There is no way I am bearing responsibility as a result of that statement being untrue."

So now they are saying that the decision is final and I either pay them back or they will go through a collections agency.

I can't get a hold of my "friends" anymore, and I'm furious that TD told me that it was irreversible and now it turns out, it is very much reversible. I don't want to be wrongfully chased by a collections agency. What can I do?
 

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i had no idea that was possible. i've sold a few things on kijiji where the buyer paid with EMT. i'll have second thoughts now...
 

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Well, it is irreversible in that the person who sent you the money can't reverse it once you've accepted the funds. The person sending CAN reverse before you accept. I've done that.

A couple of things, are you sure it was TD that called? If my bank wants to talk to me, they write a letter unless it's a call to tell me when to come to their place for an appointment. They never email and they have never called unless I call them first. And if they are demanding money, they would write a letter, not phone.

If the bank asked for the money, did they tell you how you are supposed to deliver it?

Did you tell these sketchy friends which bank you deal with? If you did, you shouldn't have. For an e-transfer to work, neither party needs to know the other person's bank. I send money to family frequently and I have no idea where they bank.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
The sketchy friends know I'm with TD.

It was definitely TD who called. (First, TD blocked my online banking. Then my calls to TD went directly to Loss Prevention. The TD operator told me to go to a branch, where I met the branch manager. Then that same branch manager called me back.)

TD says that the sender said "No I didn't authorize that, it was fraudulent" and so they will reverse the e-transfers. That is, the sender will get back his money and I (the receiver) will have that money taken from my account.

I was told e-transfers were irreversible. If I am chased by a collection agency I will be livid with fury. What are my best arguments?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
it is irreversible in that the person who sent you the money can't reverse it once you've accepted the funds
The OPPOSITE of this is happening to me right now. I accepted the funds, now the person who sent me the money is claiming "No I didn't!" and it is being reversed.

And I've already spent it, thinking what you said -- it was a gift that was NOT REVERSIBLE!!
 

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interac has this on their website :

Interac e-Transfer - Email Money Transfer, Send Money Online

Always be careful when sending money

An Interac e-Transfer transaction cannot be reversed once the recipient of the funds has deposited the transfer. You must obtain a refund directly from the recipient. You can ask the recipient to send you an Interac e-Transfer for the refund amount.


Like using cash, you should send money transfers only to parties you know and trust. For most uses of the Interac e-Transfer service (sending money to family and friends, repaying IOUs, sending monetary gifts, etc.), you know the recipient well. For uses where you may not know the receiver well (e.g., online auction purchases), take the precautions you would take when making cash purchases. For auctions and online purchases, be sure to read and follow steps as recommended by operators of these websites to protect your money.
so unless you are part of the fraud (and they can prove it) i don't think they can legally demand any money back.

Basically i would talk to the manager, send them that link and quote, and explain that either the sender or the bank is responsible for the fraud. You as the recipient are not.
 

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p.s. not sure why you're asking this question on a mac site. not that there's anything wrong with that, but I can think of other forums that this question would be better suited (perhaps redflagdeals.com's forums)
 

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The OPPOSITE of this is happening to me right now. I accepted the funds, now the person who sent me the money is claiming "No I didn't!" and it is being reversed.

And I've already spent it, thinking what you said -- it was a gift that was NOT REVERSIBLE!!
So reading between the lines here, are they accusing YOU of fraud? Did you con some people into sending you money? Maybe you "sold" something on kijiji.com and then sent them a brick instead of what you advertised?

If they are the ones who committed fraud, how did you end up with the money?

I don't think you're telling us the whole story.
 

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@i-rui : Thanks for the Interac quote. You make a good point. I will definitely say that.

@winwintoo: Well that's always nice to hear, that you think *I'M* the crook here; I have done no such thing. I have sold nothing. I have no commercial interests and nothing to sell. Some so-called friends sent money so that I could use it to help them buy a limited edition Valentino bag, I accepted their payment, bought it and gave it to one of them, now I'm hearing this.

I was also thinking, how in the world is it possible to claim fraud on email transfers? The bank should say to the sender, "no, I'm sorry. YOU were logged in on for online banking, you made the transfer, the security question YOU set up was answered correctly. You can't even claim fraud on an outside computer bc we always ask a security question for computers we don't recognize as your home computer, before letting you log onto online banking." Logically this fraud claim should be rejected.

I was told I could call the TD customer care ombudsman. I will say the interac quote. Anything else?
 

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@i-rui : Thanks for the Interac quote. You make a good point. I will definitely say that.

@winwintoo: Well that's always nice to hear, that you think *I'M* the crook here; I have done no such thing. I have sold nothing. I have no commercial interests and nothing to sell. Some so-called friends sent money so that I could use it to help them buy a limited edition Valentino bag, I accepted their payment, bought it and gave it to one of them, now I'm hearing this.

I was also thinking, how in the world is it possible to claim fraud on email transfers? The bank should say to the sender, "no, I'm sorry. YOU were logged in on for online banking, you made the transfer, the security question YOU set up was answered correctly. You can't even claim fraud on an outside computer bc we always ask a security question for computers we don't recognize as your home computer, before letting you log onto online banking." Logically this fraud claim should be rejected.

I was told I could call the TD customer care ombudsman. I will say the interac quote. Anything else?
If I was the bank, I might see some fraud in there. If the other people had the money, why didn't they buy the bag themselves?

Lesson learned, don't have financial dealings with people you don't know well.
 

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Going out on a limb here as I may be reading a bit too much between the lines. Are these friends people you met via Facebook or some other online social network?

If so I would suggest you were set-up from the beginning.
 

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I would say that fraud trumps all. Nobody gave you misinformation. The funds can't be reversed without you sending them back. But these funds aren't being reversed, they are being declared fraud and are being taken back from the bank, not from the sender.

I'm with you i-riu.. odd first post to a Mac site...lol I'm also not sure if fits in the Info Center either... :lmao:
 

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Discussion Starter #13
These people are no longer my friends. If I ever saw them again, I would not even talk to them. But I doubt they will dare contact me, they know what they did.

Yeah, I guess fraud does trump all. In the end it all worked out, but I'm not sure why. They said they will close my account, and I don't have to pay back the $3000. I guess it costs TD too much to prove that I was in on it, so they let this one go. As a result I don't have to pay from my own pocket.

Sorry guys about the weird post, I was stressed about this topic and wanted to hear what you guys thought. But I didn't know any other forums. I had seen a similar thread in "Info Centre" so I posted to this one too.
 

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These people are no longer my friends. If I ever saw them again, I would not even talk to them. But I doubt they will dare contact me, they know what they did.

Yeah, I guess fraud does trump all. In the end it all worked out, but I'm not sure why. They said they will close my account, and I don't have to pay back the $3000. I guess it costs TD too much to prove that I was in on it, so they let this one go. As a result I don't have to pay from my own pocket.

Sorry guys about the weird post, I was stressed about this topic and wanted to hear what you guys thought. But I didn't know any other forums. I had seen a similar thread in "Info Centre" so I posted to this one too.
Glad to hear it worked out OK for you. Hope they nab the crooks as they will do this again.

Good lesson to all if something does not add up, walk away.

On a somewhat related tack I had a call from Microfraud today wanting the keys to my computer. Told him to give me his number and I would phone back, after checking it out with the RCMP. Can't understand why he hung up.:confused:
 

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... ... ...

On a somewhat related tack I had a call from Microfraud today wanting the keys to my computer. Told him to give me his number and I would phone back, after checking it out with the RCMP. Can't understand why he hung up.:confused:

Aww, that's much too quick and easy. ;)

My sister and I had a running competition as to who could keep the "MS security" person on line the longest when they called about some problem and needed access to our computer to "fix the problem" of our virus contamination etc. Yeah right.

May record was for 20+ minutes, but my sister should get the award as she doesn't have and never has owned a computer and hasn't a clue as to how they work, but she managed about 8 minutes.

I've never heard any "support tech" swear so much and so loud when he figured out that he'd been had. But was stupid enough to call a day or so later and I kept him on line for only about 12 minutes.

Odd, neither of us have had any such calls for almost 1/2 a year now.
 

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Oh, is that a way to get your computer key so that they can install pirated operating systems/ software?

Does RCMP actually do anything about these calls?
 

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Just wanted to seek any experts' opinion and see what can be done.

I recently received a few Interac E-Transfers from some friends I don't know so well, and before accepting the money, I called TD Bank to ask how it worked. TD said that it is fully secure, the money is first verified that it is in the seller's account and then once you accept the funds, it is fully your money, in your account, ready for use, and, most importantly, IRREVERSIBLE. I asked, "Are you sure it is irreversible? There is no way for the sender to get the money back?" and the TD operator said, "Yes, it is irreversible. The only way for the sender to get the money back is for YOU to manually send it back to them, otherwise it is YOUR money."

I withdrew and spent the money.

Now I received a call from TD saying that those were "fraudulent funds" and they will be reversed, and I will now owe them the amount. I said, "No way! I had expressly called you before accepting and a TD representative said that with an Interac E-Transfers, once I accept it, it becomes MY money, irreversible, and I expect TD to keep their word. There is no way I am bearing responsibility as a result of that statement being untrue."

So now they are saying that the decision is final and I either pay them back or they will go through a collections agency.

I can't get a hold of my "friends" anymore, and I'm furious that TD told me that it was irreversible and now it turns out, it is very much reversible. I don't want to be wrongfully chased by a collections agency. What can I do?
This hits close to home because the Credit Union I deal with just introduced Interac E-Transfer.
It was also my understanding that the money is withdrawn from the sender's account before they can activate an E_transfer so the money has to be in the sender's account.
Interac actually touts that as a major advantage over a check.

It's a pity the TD never explained to you why that transfer was supposedly fraudulent - I would sure love to know.
Seems to me the fraud was at the bank of the sending end, the sender somehow managed to send money they didn't have in their account.
One question - how much time elapsed from when you accepted the funds until the TD contacted you to tell you the funds were fraudulent?
 

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@krs: TD had told me (before this fraudulent stuff) that the money HAS to be in the sender's bank account and fully available, then it is sent by Interac E-Transfer. So it was likely not the case that the sender managed to send money that they didn't have in their account.

Instead, it was "fraudulent funds" that was the problem, ie. the sender claimed "Oh no that wasn't me who sent that, I don't know who got access to my password, it wasn't me, I want the money back".
 

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All telephone calls are recorded by TD for "quality control and training purposes." I know someone who requested that TD check the phone record of an EasyLine conversation and it proved the caller's version of the conversation was correct--TD was good to heir word, and honoured the verbal promise.
 

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Instead, it was "fraudulent funds" that was the problem, ie. the sender claimed "Oh no that wasn't me who sent that, I don't know who got access to my password, it wasn't me, I want the money back".
Thanks for posting that.

Reminds me to check with my CU about on-line banking.

Right now my on-line banking is set up so that I can only transfer/pay money to specified accounts - those are all either companies where I have an account that needs to be paid regularly or accounts of members of my family.
So should somebody manage to get into my account somehow, all they can do is pay/transfer money to those already set up accounts of mine.

With E-transfers that all changes.
Now if someone gets into my account they can move the money anywhere if E-transfer is setup.
Not very good.

I like the European on-line banking system much better, that one is really secure with the use of the TAN numbers. I wish the banks here would smarten up and make the system more secure.
 
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