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Canadian By Choice
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Ummm.... so why, in light of this "levy" which is supposed to "compensate" artists (when in reality its just the labels that benefit) for the "right" of Canadians to download music, are CD's being sold that are copyprotected? Pay once (for something I don't do - download from P2P), pay again for something I now can't do (rip a CD I've bought for my iPod).

This makes no sense - but the recording industry has never made sense.
 

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This is disappointing. Not only does it penalize the innocent, but it also sanctions the notion that music ITSELF has no monetary value.

i wonder if this is causing Apple to drag its heels on a Canadian iTMS? After all, if it is legal to steal music (i know that's a contradiction, but you know what I mean), and people can put that stolen music on an iPod, anyway, is there much of an incentive to PURCHASE music, either online or at HMV?
 

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Mac Guru
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Does this mean we (Canadians) don't need an iTMS? :confused:
 

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The CDN gov't should take lessons from the states...it makes ya wonder why us CDN people use ebay so much, and/or buy across the border so much. If Canada wasn't so much for taxing everthing and then NOT using the money for what they say it was INTENDED for, makes people very BITTER.

The Gov't only uses the money for thier own agendas. As for the artists they will still suffer no matter what. I highly doubt the ITMS will come to Canada in the next year WHY? Canada has already stated that it will take care of the situation on thier own meaning they don't need or want ITMS. The funny thing is, is ITMS would do so much more for the artists in Canada than this petty levy we have now!!

The CDN gov't just wants all the control...they want to be the BANK of all things and then decide on how money is spent. I love to spend other peoples money without guilt....maybe I should go into politics


as far as P2P in Canada well thats the governments choice if they want it legal or not..the way they go about trying to save the artists and copyrighted needs some work though
 

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After reading the article, I saw no evidence to point to Canada making P2P services 'legal'. they are simply taxing hardware that can be used to illegally store music (note, I didn't say download illegal music, since it would have to be ON your computer before it would be transferred to an MP3 player).

That said, beyond the slightly misleading title of the article, everything stated in the article's body is all about taxing consumers for crimes they might not even commit.

The comment about making P2P downloading of files legal is complete supposition on the tax being levied. Not actual fact.

Much like the allegations that Al Gore stated he created the Internet. He never did. One interviewer took a statement Gore said and warped it and splashed it out on a headline.

Same thing here.

:rolleyes:
 

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3,251 Posts
We've had this discussion before... So I'm not going to go into the details of my position on the issue, but what I will say is that for those criticizing Canada... well you know it is a short trip across the border, I'm sure the folks down south would love have ya. ;)

But I for one will stay. I like the universal health care, signifigantly less gun deaths, Tim Horton's, Hockey Night in Canada.

This is not a fair thing for me to say. If you feel badly enough, support a politician (I'm sure you can find some "republican" Canadian Alliance types) who shares your views, help get them elected and pursuade others to do the same. That's how democracy works.

[ December 14, 2003, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: da_jonesy ]
 

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Here are the exact words from the decision by the Copyright Board

The regime does not address the source of the
material copied. There is no requirement
in Part VIII that the source copy be a
non-infringing copy. Hence, it is not relevant
whether the source of the track is a pre-owned
recording, a borrowed CD, or a track
downloaded from the Internet.

Although the source of the copy does not
matter, the destination does. The Board
believes that section 80 creates an exemption
that applies as long as two conditions are met:
the copy must be for the private use of the
person making it, and it must be made onto an audio recording medium, as defined in
section 79.
Take that as you will, but to me it states that it is irrelevant how you, the end user, have acquired the music file - the liability falls on the person whom provided it to you (prompting headlines such as the one on Quicken's site that downloading is legal).
 

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There seems to be a great deal of confusion surrounding this issue. Unfortunately, I am not a copyright lawyer and can't truly clear it up.

Nowhere, as far as I can tell, does it state that stealing music is legal in Canada. Theft is theft, just like the satellite signal commercials tell us. The act of downloading a file is not illegal. Be it music, video, text, whatever. Ripping a file and converting to mp3, AAC, etc. is not illegal. Giving a copy of the file to someone else is illegal.

That being said, I still don't like the levy. The levy is just adding an additional tax to something that is already taxed. I pay tax when I buy the device (iPod) and I pay tax when I buy my music (CD) and I pay tax when I buy my alternative media (CD-R). Why should I have to pay an additional levy just because I might put music on a CD-R (which I don't very often) or on my iPod. The price of music reflects the necessary dollar value to pay everyone envolved and the taxes payed on purchases give the government their cut. I fail to see how the recording industry talked the government into imposing this levy when everyone else in the country thinks it's a rip-off.
 

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"Nowhere, as far as I can tell, does it state that stealing music is legal in Canada. Theft is theft, just like the satellite signal commercials tell us. The act of downloading a file is not illegal. Be it music, video, text, whatever. Ripping a file and converting to mp3, AAC, etc. is not illegal. Giving a copy of the file to someone else is illegal."

So by your arguement anyone who runs P2P software and shares their music files is breaking the law? Is that in essence "giving" the file to someone else?
 

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Giving away a copy of music is illegal. If you want to give away a pre-recorded CD, no-one can stop you. You can't make a duplicate of the files for yourself and then give away the original. Nor can you give away the copy. I didn't say that sharing the file via P2P is or should be illegal. If the act of downloading a file is legal (provided you already have the license to use the file, ie. bought the CD) you should be able to get it from anyone willing to give it to you.

The biggest problem comes in monitoring legal use of files. How do you know if someone has legal right to use a file?
 

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You can download anything you want, what is illegal is to upload something to be downloaded. The tactic the gov't has taken is to make it illegal to share what you own, and penalize you for violating the copyright law. If you download something that is illegally uploaded, you are not liable for that transaction (then, if you proceed to share it, you are violating the copyright law).

That's what I read out of it.
 

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You see here is the thing...

I place the files on my machine for my use, but I use some P2P software on my machine for downloading (whatever... lets not get into that part yet). As I am using that software... someone downloads something from my computer. I never gave that person anything, they downloaded it from my machine.

Now... I am guilty of commiting a crime?
 

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I still have to calm down when I think of this tax levy. :mad: The most calm, civil thing I can say about this tax is that it's the most stupid ***** decision I have ever heard off. :mad:


We are just on the edge of legitimate, legal ways for people to purchase music online in Canada. Puretracks is here and ITMS is just around the corner. Apple has sold 25 million tracks already in the US at over a million tracks per week. Think of how huge this will be when this goes worldwide and Apple starts doing cross-promotions with Pepsi etc.. And this is just Apple. Guys like Dell and Roxio are in the mix too. Pretty soon everyone from Microsoft to Walmart will be selling music legitimetely.

Then along comes this ***** decision to put a tax on iPods and other similar devices.

This is the exact message this sends out: Don't worry about paying for music with legitimate services, cause it's free.

I don't care if this actually is the case or not, this is the loud and clear message that gets sent out. I've talked with several Apple Resellers and already on Saturday, they had many customers who said they have never downloaded online music or maybe only dabled with Kazaa. But after this news, they were planning on downloading music for free. It's so incredibly stupid. It sends the online music distribution method back into the dark ages.

Not even to mention how this is going to effect retailers of iPods and the whole gray market and cross border sales of digital music players this is going to start.

Somehow over the next several months, somewhere the s*** is going to hit the fan and I hope it sprays all over the bozos who thought this was a good idea.



Ok.. I needed that public vent.
 

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So now my question is... what about the content of the files that are being shared? right now they are talking about music. Does this apply to other files? What about movies or applications?
 

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According to the Act you have commited an illegal act. Most P2P software allows you to designate a directory which is open for sharing. If you haven't set your software up properly then you are still guilty. If somehow the P2P software is giving people free access to any file on your computer, you have other problems as well. Turning a blind eye and "accidentally" sharing files is still illegal.

Edit: This post goes back a few messages. It looks like a few of us added posts at the same time.
 

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File sharing is just that... it is not uploading. If I have files on my machine and anyone takes that file according to this act how am I breaking the law (and which law would that be anyway... and where in the text does it specifically mention file sharing or P2P software)?

By your arguement that means every library in Canada that allows people to borrow music (any library that loans music) is commiting a crime... great logic there boy.

I think you are wrong in this one. And this gets back to my previous arguement (of several threads long since passed) that technology is so far beyond what copyright laws can control that it is making it a moot point... and perhaps what we need is to finally have some serious thinking on IP laws.

PERSONAL NOTE... FYI I do not share any files on my collection of machines. My machines are safely held behind a router based firewall. Who in their right mind would want to share files so any kids with a 56K dial up can ruin your bandwidth while they download an mp3 off of your machine
 

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I don't really want to get into this fray, but, file sharing is uploading. It's like muscles in your body. In your arms and legs at least, there is one muscle on either side of the bone (I'm a little rusty on physiology, correct me if wrong). When your arm moves, one muscle is pulling, while the other is relaxing. When you "share music", the person downloading is pulling, and you're the muscle that's relaxing.

Another analogy, I suppose, would be that it takes 2 to talk: 1 to speak, 1 to listen. It takes 2 to file share: 1 to upload, 1 to download.

That's the denotive side of it, at least. If you'd like, I could go into the grungy underbelly of it (the TCP/IP stack)... ;)

Cheers,
Podboy
 
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