[Gerbill]

I'm going to make a prediction here. If I'm wrong, feel free to heap scorn and derision upon my head when the time comes.

Panther will support only Macs that were originally equipped with at least one USB port.

That means Panther will support:

• all models of iMac, including both G3s and G4s
• all iBooks
• all eMacs
• all other Macs that originally came with a G4 processor, including G4 Towers, Cubes and G4 PowerBooks
• B&W G3 towers
• G3 PowerBooks with built-in USB (Lombard and up)

Out in the cold will be:

• all pre-Lombard G3 PowerBooks
• all beige G3s
• all earlier Macs with G3 or G4 upgrades

I guess time will tell, and ingenious people may well contrive patches and workarounds to get older Macs to boot in Panther, but the above is, in my opinion, the line in the sand that Apple will draw for official support.

Cheers :-> Bill

 

[PosterBoy]

If a beige could run OS 10.0.x, which was a pig compared to Jaguar or Panther, then why wouldn't it be able to run Panther?

What makes you assume that they would cut support for so many models?

The supported systems of OS X will probably remain the same as tehy are right now, every machine with a G3 or better except the Original PowerBook G3.

--PB

 

[sputnik]

I think it is definetly a wait and see situation.On one hand you have the fact of so many G3 people out there it would be a bad choice to cut them out,on the other hand,Apple cut OS9 out of the picture and forced some people to upgrade so it really could go either way.I personally hope they don't.

 

[SpanishJoe]

Y'know, everyone bitches and whines and complains when a new OS comes out that doesn't support their 10-year-old machines.

Then, within 2 months of its release, somebody comes out with a patch that will allow it to install.

But really, would you actually want to run 10.3 on a beige G3 266 with a MAXIMUM ram of 384 MB and a 10 G hard drive with no hardware graphic acceleration? Why would you want to do that? Are you mental? OS 9.2 absolutely flies on it, too, but you'd rather hobble it with a the "backpack of bricks" that is OSX.

Listen, I've installed Jaguar on my Wallstreet 300, and beige G3 266, and they was so slow and unresponsive that it was almost sad to see such OS9 speed demons choke so hard. Not to mention that I lost 25% of my hard drive space to hardware alone.

What I'm trying to say here is that when you buy a Mac, enjoy it as it is right from the store. That's about as fast as it's ever going to be without extensive (and expensive) hardware upgrades. If you're not happy with it's speed and power then, you will never ever be happy with it in the future...

Anyhow, that turned into a bit of a rant... sorry...

-SJ.

 

[sputnik]

Not so much of a rant but you are right SJ.

 

[Strongblade]

I think that it is important to note that Apple, upon the release of OS X, did not officially support Beige G3 machines or processor upgraded macs in the G3-G4 range.

Also, the original G3 Powerbook (pre-codename) was not officially supported.

As far as I can tell, Apple has never changed this official stance on which machines are supported.

 

[Gerbill]

Apple, upon the release of OS X, did not officially support Beige G3 machines

Yes they did!

Cheers :-> Bill

 

[Trevor...]

This is for the time being BULL$£!+

Mac OS X can NOT tell the differance between a PCI USB card and a built in USB controller.

The original iMac's, the Blue G3's, Lombard powerbooks and the commanding majority of USB PCI cards use the Opti FireLink 82C861 USB controller.

While running Mac OS X, a Beige G3 is functionally identical to the Blue G3 so far as an opperating system is concerned.

All systems running Mac OS X are technically "New World" because the old toolbox rom is irrelevant. The built in Mach64 video on the Beige G3 is just a videocard in PCI slot F1 to Mac OS and the lower bus speed is just a lower bus speed. The only real architecture differance between the Beige and Blue G3's is the Blue G3s have a much better PCI subsystem, but not really a big deal.

 

[sputnik]

I'm curious as to why some hardware manufactures will have requirements on the box of "Built in USB" only then?If the OS sees it as the same why won't the hardware?I suppose it is to avoid tech support and legal issues.

 

[monokitty]

But really, would you actually want to run 10.3 on a beige G3 266 with a MAXIMUM ram of 384 MB and a 10 G hard drive with no hardware graphic acceleration? Why would you want to do that? Are you mental?

I hate to break you up, but this is far from true. First of all, all 3 models of the Beige G3 can hold 768 MB of SDRAM, not a maximum of 384 MB like you stated. As far as graphic acceleration goes, throw a Radeon 7000 32 MB DDR into a Beige G3, and there you go - no, it's not Quartz Extreme, but boosts overall graphics performance in OS X a lot. Plus, a simple hack will easily enabled QE for a 15% speed increase.

And what about a 10 GB drive? Panther won't be 5 GB in size. Beige G3's can hold up to 80 GB or bigger hard drives on a single built-in ATA bus. My 366 MHz G3 runs 10.2.6 well enough for my use, and I don't find it slow, either. I don't see why 10.3 would suddenly kill my G3.

 

[PosterBoy]

Also, I have read that people running older systems (iMac 400s for example) have seen as dramatic a performance increase going from Jaguar to Panther DevPreview as they did going from 10.1 to Jaguar.

If anything, I'd say that despite the amount of HD space that OS X takes up, things are only looking better for OS X users on old machines.

--PB

PS: With the initial release of OS X 10.0.0, Apple supported every G3 machine except they Original PowerBook G3, which was codenamed "Kanga".

 

[Trevor...]

Sputnik, I assume you are talking about the Iomega Predator CD-RW drives?

That is an issue with the 3rd party PCI USB drivers in Mac OS 9, it isn't a problem in OS X.

Basically, if your buying a USB card for a Mac, stick to Opti Firelink and you won't have a problem.

 

[sputnik]

Gotcha.

 

[SpanishJoe]

Check yourself before you wreck yourself, Lars.

"First of all, all 3 models of the Beige G3 can hold 768 MB of SDRAM, not a maximum of 384 MB like you stated."

Check the actual tech info database. (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=43125). The minitower (and the others) have a maximum of 384 MB of RAM. MacTracker is wrong.

"As far as graphic acceleration goes, throw a Radeon 7000 32 MB DDR into a Beige G3, and there you go"

Yeah, right. The beige G3s didn't have any AGP ports. The PCI port on the beige G3s is very poky (33/66Mhz) It wasn't until the B&W did the AGP ports come into play. Besides, a Radeon 7000 costs about $120 bucks, with taxes.

" Plus, a simple hack will easily enabled QE for a 15% speed increase."

I assume you mean this one: http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/16006 , which is nice and all, but apparently plays havoc with the other processes on the PCI bus, like playing movies and other such things. Not to mantion that a 66Mhz bus would be quickly bogged up by such a fast card. Bus speed is bus speed. You can't drive a porsche down a hiking trail.

"And what about a 10 GB drive? Panther won't be 5 GB in size. "

I didn't say that it would be 5 GB in size. It will be 2 GB in size, just like Jaguar is. A 10 GB drive has only 9GB of useable space, leaving you about 7GB of room for other stuff. Sounds like a lot, but it really isn't. One MS office install, a bunch of MP3s, and a couple of games. That's it.

"Beige G3's can hold up to 80 GB or bigger hard drives on a single built-in ATA bus."

Nope. The Beige G3s have only an IDE (standard IDE, mind you) bus. Or Ultra/Wide SCSI, depending on the configuration. Ultra/Wide SCSI drives are not that cheap, or even available in 80 GB sizes. They're kinda rare.

Also, in order to use Jag, or Panther, or any other UNIX-based OS, you're going to be paging memory back and forth from disk, and for that, you need at least an UltraATA bus to work well. Ultra/Wide SCSI will do the trick, but good luck finding a cheap 80GB drive.

"My 366 MHz G3 runs 10.2.6 well enough for my use, and I don't find it slow, either. I don't see why 10.3 would suddenly kill my G3."

You don't have a beige G3, then. I don't know what you have. Apple didn't make a G3 tower OR iMac with a 366Mhz processor, so far as I know. The only Mac with a 366 MHz processor that I know of is the original iBook, which I also have, and it runs Jaguar very poorly, IMHO.

-SJ.

 

[sputnik]

I think its overclocked to 366.

 

[monokitty]

Check the actual tech info database. (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=43125). The minitower (and the others) have a maximum of 384 MB of RAM. MacTracker is wrong.

Low-profile 256 MB DIMMS - You're right, those aren't included in the Apple database. Whether it is or not is irrealvent. Secondly, my Beige G3 has 544 MB of built-in RAM, and if the maximum is 384 MB, I have no sweet clue how I managed to pull 544 MB off.

I would know. 3 slots - 3x256 Low-profile DIMMS = 768 MB total. End of story.

ope. The Beige G3s have only an IDE (standard IDE, mind you) bus. Or Ultra/Wide SCSI, depending on the configuration. Ultra/Wide SCSI drives are not that cheap, or even available in 80 GB sizes. They're kinda rare.

Completely wrong. Every single model of the Beige G3 came with both ATA and a internal/external SCSI connector. My Beige G3 has a 20 GB ATA/100 installed hard driver connected to the logic board ATA connector.

You should be the one checking your facts. I own a Beige G3 and know it inside out completely.

You don't have a beige G3, then. I don't know what you have. Apple didn't make a G3 tower OR iMac with a 366Mhz processor, so far as I know.

I have a G3/350 MHz upgrade card clocked to 366 MHz. Simple as that.

Yeah, right. The beige G3s didn't have any AGP ports. The PCI port on the beige G3s is very poky (33/66Mhz) It wasn't until the B&W did the AGP ports come into play.

A) - The Radeon 7000 is NOT a AGP card - it's PCI-based.

B) - Blue and White G3's did NOT have a AGP slot; they had one 66 MHz PCI slot, and 3x33 MHz PCI slots. The first AGP-equipped Mac was the Power Mac G4 350 MHz (Sawtooth, NOT Yikes).

 

[Gerbill]

Check the actual tech info database. (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=43125). The minitower (and the others) have a maximum of 384 MB of RAM. MacTracker is wrong.

The Apple spec dates back to the original release of the computer. At that time, there were no 256 MB DIMMs available that would physically fit into a beige G3. Time passed, and they became available, and they work if you install them, regardless of what the old Apple spec says.

"As far as graphic acceleration goes, throw a Radeon 7000 32 MB DDR into a Beige G3, and there you go"

Yeah, right. The beige G3s didn't have any AGP ports. The PCI port on the beige G3s is very poky (33/66Mhz) It wasn't until the B&W did the AGP ports come into play. Besides, a Radeon 7000 costs about $120 bucks, with taxes.

Where is this B&W G3 that has an AGP port? I'd like to see that.

Cheers :-> Bill

 

[groovetube]

384 megs max????

I got one of dem special beiges I guess.

Got 768 running no trouble.

 

[monokitty]

384 megs max????

I got one of dem special beiges I guess.

Got 768 running no trouble.

LOL

Yeah, I got one of those "rare" and "special" ones, too.

 

[Klaatu]

Ditto

Wow! And I thought *I* was the special one