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Discussion Starter #81
Your continued bashing of people who don't buy a Prius is getting very tiresome.

Here's a news flash for you. I don't like, nor have any use for a Prius and will never buy one.
You are mistaken, Sinc - I'm not bashing people who don't buy one. All I am doing is pointing out the misinformation that does exist that does stop many people (not everyone) from considering a car that really does make economical and environmental sense.

I find it very strange that you would react so emotionally - even my 13 year old has grown out of that stage of life! Don't read the thread if you don't like it.
 

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I find it very strange that you would react so emotionally - even my 13 year old has grown out of that stage of life! Don't read the thread if you don't like it.
Don't read a rational breakdown of costs, if it causes you to spew insults.
 

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You are mistaken, Sinc - I'm not bashing people who don't buy one. All I am doing is pointing out the misinformation that does exist that does stop many people (not everyone) from considering a car that really does make economical and environmental sense.

I find it very strange that you would react so emotionally - even my 13 year old has grown out of that stage of life! Don't read the thread if you don't like it.
jef: Yes, we get it. You're right, everyone else is wrong, but they're not wrong because they're wrong, they're wrong because they're misinformed and only you know the truth.

Thank you for sharing your insights on the Prius. However the rest of us are not complete idiots and may have chosen other vehicles for reasons other than misinformation.
 

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You are mistaken, Sinc - I'm not bashing people who don't buy one.
Oh, really?


NA consumers are still too married to impractical marketing
If you don't consider emissions (not only carbon footprint) to be important, that is your right. I assume that you also think smoking is healthy and we should continue to dump toxic waste into our drinking water. It is not 'sensible' in any way to put economy of operation over the environment.
Most people have very wrong assumptions about the hybrids on the roads today.
But there are lots of buyers that can afford a Prius who spend the same or even more money on a car that is a lot harder on the environment
the majority of first time Prius buyers are well educated, professional people who are looking to reduce emissions and contribute to new, cleaner technologies. Not people who are looking for a cheap car..
If you see a phallic symbol in a car, I think you need help...
Lots of people have made the decision not to buy based on erroneous information.
I know there is so much misinformation as clearly demonstrated in this thread (and others) that people are making decisions - important ones - based on incorrect information, .
I have a friend who talks total crap and says the same thing
I am quite aware that people don't make purchases based on reality. .
I'm glad you like your cheap car.
I know from my own experience and others that because there is so much misinformation, many people who do decide not to consider one are doing so for the wrong reasons.
If someone decides not to pursue their interest in a Prius because they believe that they need to replace batteries at great cost during the life of the vehicle, they are making an uninformed decision.
Many of these people are misinformed when it comes to the many myths that surround hybrids
MLeh said it best:

jef: Yes, we get it. You're right, everyone else is wrong, but they're not wrong because they're wrong, they're wrong because they're misinformed and only you know the truth.

Thank you for sharing your insights on the Prius. However the rest of us are not complete idiots and may have chosen other vehicles for reasons other than misinformation.
 

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I have read a rational breakdown of costs - but not many in this thread. What insults have been spewed?
Might have been the part where you suggested that SINC had the temperament of someone under 13 years of age.
 

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These glorious tales of Prius are delivered with the same zeal of people I see at the health food store preaching the life-affirming values of flax seed or colon cleansing. If you choose not buy their products, you're essentially the victim of some misinformation campaign, and damning yourself to hell. Why can't they be happy stuffing their own colons full of seeds?
 

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I realise that MANY people choose not to by a Prius for many reasons. Many of these people are misinformed when it comes to the many myths that surround hybrids like battery replacement and production issues. If these myths were corrected, there may be many more happy hybrid owners on the road.
Even if you want a hybrid, there are other choices that may be better than a Prius for some.

If I was in the market for a hybrid (I'm not...) I would likely choose a Fusion Hybrid over a Prius. The dull, boring, anonymous styling of the Fusion would allow me to blend into traffic and slip by unnoticed without attracting attention from fanboys and haters.

While the Fusion Hybrid uses a bit more fuel than a Prius, I expect it has better driving dynamics. I've never driven the Fusion Hybrid, but I've driven a number of Fusions and they are quite fun to drive - especially in 3.5 Sport AWD trim. The Fusion is also a larger, more comfortable car.

While the Fusion interior is nothing special, I've spent enough time riding in Vancouver taxi cabs to know I would much rather sit inside a Fusion than a Prius.
Plus I own and have had 4 in my family starting from 2001, so I can speak from first hand experience for the lack of maintenance required and the low overall cost of ownership.
The Prius has pretty good reliability stats - but it is hardly unique in this regard. In fact, ~most~ modern cars are pretty reliable these days.

If ownership costs are important there are other, better, choices. As someone else pointed out, a Civic sedan offers lower ownership cost. I suspect if you were to find a leftover, new, unloved, deeply discounted Cobalt you could get even lower ownership costs right now if you pay (not very much) cash for it up front, and drive it for five years until the warranty is done. You will pay very little for fuel and maintenance, and could probably still get $5k for it when you are finished with it.
Not enough information is known about the Volt - its not on the road yet. I'm following the story but there is still lots of conflicting information.
Initial reviews are quite promising:
Review: 2011 Chevrolet Volt | The Truth About Cars
Review: 2011 Chevrolet Volt Take Two | The Truth About Cars

A "conventional" hybrid such as a Fusion or a Prius would likely be a better choice for Taxi duty, but for a private car that sits parked 90% of the time a plug hybrid looks like a better choice. Folks that have a commute of less than 60km round trip will use little or no gas in their day to day commute, but still have the option of longer trips with decent fuel economy.
It looks like Nissan will have an interesting all-electric offer soon and I hope its launch in Canada comes soon.Nissan LEAF Electric Car | Home | Nissan Canada Official Site
Range and recharging time are pretty big limitations to a pure EV. For most private users, a plug hybrid such as the Volt will be a better choice than a Leaf.

An EV can make sense as a third or fourth car used *only* for commuting where the daily mileage will be well within it's limited range. I expect there will be a place for EVs, but I doubt they will be able to replace ICE powered cars.

As an aside, there is some interesting work on EVs being done right here in Calgary by these folks: MOTIVE INDUSTRIES INC. Driving Innovation

Bottom line: There are many good reasons for even informed, environmentally aware consumers to choose something other than a Prius. My shoes fit me well - that doesn't mean you should get a pair...
 

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To be fair I might have bought a Prius, IF there had been a two year old Prius available for under $13,000. As it is I can tell you that over the six years I have owned the Echo it has cost ~25¢/mile (17¢/km) to drive. That includes gas, oil, maintenance, repairs, insurance, depreciation, washer fluid.... Absolutely every penny that has gone into the car is included.

Something tells me that because of higher insurance and depreciation, Jef's Prius cannot match that number.
 

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To be fair I might have bought a Prius, IF there had been a two year old Prius available for under $13,000. As it is I can tell you that over the six years I have owned the Echo it has cost ~25¢/mile (17¢/km) to drive. That includes gas, oil, maintenance, repairs, insurance, depreciation, washer fluid.... Absolutely every penny that has gone into the car is included.

Something tells me that because of higher insurance and depreciation, Jef's Prius cannot match that number.
I have a 2004 Echo as well, with just over 33,000km on it. I have looked at the Prius ever since they came out, but felt that with the amount of driving I do, and the nature of city driving here in St.John's, especially in the wintertime, the Echo was the right choice for me, Gas costs more here in St.John's than where you are, but I am getting 30mpg, which is fine with me.
 

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I have a 2004 Echo as well, with just over 33,000km on it. I have looked at the Prius ever since they came out, but felt that with the amount of driving I do, and the nature of city driving here in St.John's, especially in the wintertime, the Echo was the right choice for me, Gas costs more here in St.John's than where you are, but I am getting 30mpg, which is fine with me.
Altitude must make a difference as the only time I have gotten less than 32 MPG was in the dead of winter, -20 temps and all city/stop and stop driving. Year round average is 37+ but more of those than average are highway miles.

OTH your engine is not yet broken in.:D

Economically the only way the Prius makes sense is high mileage city driving. From a pollution stand point keeping your annual mileage down around 5500 K is making a far more positive contribution than buying a more fuel efficient car ever could.
 

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I love how this thread is interrupted by a Jetta ad... mind you the new Jetta is meh (MKIV ftw) but yea.

I agree with eMacMan, Dr.G. your little driving does more for the environment than a hybrid ever will. We are trying our best to reduce the driving in our household.
 

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I love how this thread is interrupted by a Jetta ad... mind you the new Jetta is meh (MKIV ftw) but yea.

I agree with eMacMan, Dr.G. your little driving does more for the environment than a hybrid ever will. We are trying our best to reduce the driving in our household.
Luckily, I work from home and can walk to most stores or even my office on campus, and my son and wife can walk to work, but are only a 5-7 minute drive to work, depending upon the traffic. I have to admit that most of the time the car sits in the driveway.
 

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Altitude must make a difference as the only time I have gotten less than 32 MPG was in the dead of winter, -20 temps and all city/stop and stop driving. Year round average is 37+ but more of those than average are highway miles.

OTH your engine is not yet broken in.:D

Economically the only way the Prius makes sense is high mileage city driving. From a pollution stand point keeping your annual mileage down around 5500 K is making a far more positive contribution than buying a more fuel efficient car ever could.
We do no highway driving, so it is only in the city and the only thing I insist on is no starting up the car and letting it idle for 10 minutes while it warms up -- 30 seconds of idle is plenty.
 

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Discussion Starter #96
Economically the only way the Prius makes sense is high mileage city driving.
This is not true. The Prius is most efficient on rural/suburban roads but it will have better mileage than almost every other vehicle on the road and certainly lower emissions even at highway speeds.

Yes - not driving as much is obviously better but your low mileage car will retain a high resale value and it will probably end its life with much higher mileage than you might put on it.
 

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Discussion Starter #97
This is a reasonable article - the market is not ready for all electric - yet. The claim of high battery costs is the same one that was initially made about hybrids and turned out not to be a factor. I hope it is the same for electric cars when they hit the road. As production increases, the price will come down. Recycling will also kick in as these batteries are designed to be recycled.

Also, even the dirtiest coal generated electricity coming from the grid equals about 15% of the emissions that a regular car would generate. An 85% reduction is better than none.

I plan on being an early adopter once all electrics become available. Meanwhile, hybrids are currently proving their reliability and moving the market in the right direction. The plug in Prius might also be a good interim choice if the first electrics do not stand up to expectations as far as reliability and infrastructure support goes in the next couple of years.
 

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We do no highway driving, so it is only in the city and the only thing I insist on is no starting up the car and letting it idle for 10 minutes while it warms up -- 30 seconds of idle is plenty.
Love that theory, but at -20°C, mine idles until all the windows are clear. I do help with the ice dozer but until I know I can see the car goes no-where. Still I was reviewing my records and only 4 fill-ups over 6 years and 150,000 Kms were less than 30 MPG (US) and all were very cold city driving conditions. I will happily pay for the extra for gas under those conditions and obviously the CO2 released failed to warm the environment by the slightest amount. BTW Normal winter driving is about 32-35 mpg city.
 

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Ditto here if my windows are iced up, I will idle for 15 minutes so I have a clear view all the way around before I move. Of course my heated garage makes that a rare occurence when I leave it outside at a meeting or while shopping.
 

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15 minutes? 5 minutes is usually enough on the worst days. Turn on the car then get that ice scraper out. It's usually the fog on the inside that has to clear. In our underground garage though, we never have problems.

On normal days, 30 seconds + a couple of minutes of light driving through the neighbourhood.
 
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