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Discussion Starter #61
By now most of you will agree that Jef is obsessed with Prius.

Anything he writes now or in the future will reflect that obsession.

I don't share his views and apparently most others in this thread do not either.

Conclusion: Jef's opinion is his own and he is welcome to it. I won't be wasting any further electrons debating with a Prius fanatic. Best of all, I can get much better mileage in any other thread.
If you are going to use the word obsessed, I would agree with you if it was describing the way I do feel about the misinformation about hybrids, and the Prius in particular.

As an owner, I get so many people telling me things about my car (here and in shopping mall parking lots) and why they would not buy one based on information that is simply untrue. (like batteries fail and need replacing and cost 9,000, the energy to create the batteries makes a Hummer greener etc etc. - most of these fallacies have cropped up in this thread) This is my issue.

I do wish there were more options in the market than just the Prius - smaller, cheaper hybrids would be awesome, hybrid vans sell very well in Japan but so far they are not available to consumers here. Honda and other hybrid makers just don't have the technology right yet. As soon as I need a new vehicle, I hope that all-electric is available and viable at that time - I don't care who makes it.

I have turned many PC owners into very happy Mac owners by being persistent and presenting facts. Sometimes it is very hard to convince a PC user that they really won't get viruses and that they can open Word documents on a Mac etc etc. But its been worth the effort when they do switch - especially when the calls to rescue them from their PC nightmares stop. It's the same logic and effort I put into correcting the myths that might keep people from considering a hybrid when making a car purchase. In the case of a car, the overall benefits are much greater in terms of reduced emissions and related heath issues.
 

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One of the reasons I won't drive a hybrid is because there is only one manual transmission hybrid available, and it only fits two and it's not even that fuel efficient.

If we do ever need a second car, it would definitely be an electric, but we don't need a second car at this point. I don't need to use gas to get groceries but I do enjoy ripping up a nice twisty mountain road or two.
 

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And I really do think saving on fuel and emissions is a much smarter societal choice that more people would make if they had better information to work with when considering a car purchase.
And this is your problem - you still don't get it. You assume that everyone who chooses not to buy a Prius doesn't have good information. This is the insulting part. We have the information, and it doesn't mesh with our needs in a vehicle. Please understand and respect that.

I'm sure if I visited you I could walk around your home and find lots of things that don't have the absolute smallest impact on society or the environment. I could suggest you find a new career that doesn't involve driving to visit clients. Wouldn't that be better? But I wouldn't do that because it's pointless. We all have to make tradeoffs between lifestyle and environmental impact. You chose to do so with your car purchase - good for you.
 

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Discussion Starter #64
And this is your problem - you still don't get it. You assume that everyone who chooses not to buy a Prius doesn't have good information. This is the insulting part. We have the information, and it doesn't mesh with our needs in a vehicle. Please understand and respect that.
I don't assume that everyone who chooses not to buy a Prius doesn't have good information. That would be silly.

I know from my own experience and others that because there is so much misinformation, many people who do decide not to consider one are doing so for the wrong reasons. Big difference!

If you need a truck or a 4X4 then they are certainly a better choice. I respect that.

How hard its it to understand that correcting misinformation is a good thing especially for major purchases?
 

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I don't assume that everyone who chooses not to buy a Prius doesn't have good information. That would be silly.

I know from my own experience and others that because there is so much misinformation, many people who do decide not to consider one are doing so for the wrong reasons. Big difference!

If you need a truck or a 4X4 then they are certainly a better choice. I respect that.

How hard its it to understand that correcting misinformation is a good thing especially for major purchases?
I would suggest that even if this (correcting misinformation) the message you intend to put across, that is not the overall message that most others are getting from you.
 

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Discussion Starter #66
I would suggest that even if this (correcting misinformation) the message you intend to put across, that is not the overall message that most others are getting from you.
I have repeated it several times in my posts when people have responded only to the fuel payback issue, which is not my main point. It's kinda like PC users sticking to the 'there are no viruses only because there are fewer Macs' argument' when you are trying to tell them that the Mac is simply more secure...
 

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Ditto what Sonal says.

By the way, I find the notion of the Mac OS being inherently more secure to be a thin premise indeed.
 

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Sorry Jef but I view the hybrid as somewhat of a dead end intermediate step. Kind of like the Mac G5 chip or the Core Duo chip.

The Chevy Volt is somewhat closer but still not it. What is needed is a simple gas electric.

Electric motor period. Not electric/engine combo, not gas engine driving generator which is also mechanically linked to the electric motor.

A smaller less expensive battery pack. Small gas engine powers generator to charge batteries. Batteries run the electric motor. This is the system used in railroad engines and even those monster sized trucks used in open pit mines.

Beyond that Natural gas or even methane running a fuel cell.
 

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Discussion Starter #71
Sorry Jef but I view the hybrid as somewhat of a dead end intermediate step. Kind of like the Mac G5 chip or the Core Duo chip.

The Chevy Volt is somewhat closer but still not it. What is needed is a simple gas electric.

Electric motor period. Not electric/engine combo, not gas engine driving generator which is also mechanically linked to the electric motor.

A smaller less expensive battery pack. Small gas engine powers generator to charge batteries. Batteries run the electric motor. This is the system used in railroad engines and even those monster sized trucks used in open pit mines.

Beyond that Natural gas or even methane running a fuel cell.
I agree - but until there are better choices, its the best one we have - and it works very well. Burning one third of the fuel combined with cleaner overall emissions today is a step in the right direction. Hopefully soon there will be more options and electric-only vehicles to replace the hybrid. I really hope my next car is all-electric.
 

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Discussion Starter #72
Yep Jef, you are a lonely man on an island it would seem. I just don't buy your brand of snake oil.
Snake oil? Please point out the things I have stated that are false. All I have done is corrected some the false information that is so prevalent about hybrids. I am not 'selling' anything - all I wish to accomplish is to set the record straight and help people make better informed decisions.

If someone decides not to pursue their interest in a Prius because they believe that they need to replace batteries at great cost during the life of the vehicle, they are making an uninformed decision. I hope that does not happen as often as it does.

Lonely? That was funny, Sinc...
 

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Discussion Starter #73
Ditto what Sonal says.

By the way, I find the notion of the Mac OS being inherently more secure to be a thin premise indeed.
Really? I said 'simply more secure' - which it is for the average user as far as viruses, of which there are several thousand for PC users. How many infections have you had that would lead you to believe otherwise? No computer is perfect and neither is any car. But some are more productive and efficient than others.
 

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I am merely pointing out that claiming, as you do, that the Mac is more secure based on the fact that it's less targeted by malware hardly constitutes a stellar argument to make for its own intrinsic security as an OS. Should malware enthusiasts wish to mess with the OS, I've often heard it's not a problem. Someone who wants to make a splash in that arena is going to go after the big numbers - meaning the PC installed base, which remains far larger than the Mac base. In other words, it's not owing to any great advantage written into the Mac code base.

Is a Mac really more productive than others? My friends who mix music and do multimedia on PCs would scoff at your claim.

Anyway, back to the car thing we go. As for all-electrics arriving on Canada's roads, I think we will see a fair amount of government foot-dragging on that score.
 

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I don't assume that everyone who chooses not to buy a Prius doesn't have good information. That would be silly.

I know from my own experience and others that because there is so much misinformation, many people who do decide not to consider one are doing so for the wrong reasons. Big difference!
How is "doesn't have good information" any different than "doing so for the wrong reasons?" To me, that is exactly what you said, just in different words. To prove me wrong, just state this:

Many people who decided not to consider a Prius did so for the right reasons. There are other sedans that fit some people's needs better than a Prius.
 

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Discussion Starter #77
How is "doesn't have good information" any different than "doing so for the wrong reasons?" To me, that is exactly what you said, just in different words. To prove me wrong, just state this:

Many people who decided not to consider a Prius did so for the right reasons. There are other sedans that fit some people's needs better than a Prius.
Sorry for the delay - I've been busy...

I'm still trying to make sense out of what you asked but here are real examples:

There are lots of people who are interested in buying a hybrid so they reduce their emissions and get better fuel economy at the same time. BUT they read 'somewhere' or 'heard from a friend' that hybrid batteries are expensive and need replacing so they did not buy one. Or, they read 'somewhere' or 'heard from a friend' that the cost of production is so high for battery production, it offsets the advantages of driving one, so they chose a compact car.

In these cases, the decision making information is wrong - so they decided to buy another car - for the wrong reasons.

This is unfortunate because these buyers did not get what they wanted based on incorrect information and instead of investing in next generation technologies, they ended up supporting old technology for the next few years.

The evidence of this happening is everywhere and here in the posts in this thread - there are people who have stated that they were interested but ...a salesman said the price of battery replacement would be $9,000?! and someone else said that the cost of battery production 'evens out' over the lifetime of the car. I hear these statements often - but they are wrong.

Today, I persuaded 2 PC owners (clients) to consider a Mac for their teen-aged kids for Christmas. It was hard work but I think they will go for it. I hope these kids get an awesome present this year...
 

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What if someone simply doesn't care for the Prius, and prefers some other vehicle?

Some might prefer the styling, performance, or comfort of a different vehicle - does that make them shallow, or uninformed? Some people choose a vehicle based on "status" (including some Prius drivers), but there are other reasons to choose one vehicle over another.

BTW - what do you think of the Volt? Seems to me the plug hybrid capability "out Priuses the Prius" for most commutes, if they could combine this with smart metering and renewables to charge the car in the most efficient manner possible they would be on to something...
 

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Discussion Starter #79
What if someone simply doesn't care for the Prius, and prefers some other vehicle?

Some might prefer the styling, performance, or comfort of a different vehicle - does that make them shallow, or uninformed? Some people choose a vehicle based on "status" (including some Prius drivers), but there are other reasons to choose one vehicle over another.

BTW - what do you think of the Volt? Seems to me the plug hybrid capability "out Priuses the Prius" for most commutes, if they could combine this with smart metering and renewables to charge the car in the most efficient manner possible they would be on to something...
I realise that MANY people choose not to by a Prius for many reasons. Many of these people are misinformed when it comes to the many myths that surround hybrids like battery replacement and production issues. If these myths were corrected, there may be many more happy hybrid owners on the road. The hybrid system in the Prius is not the same as other hybrids and that is why I use the Prius as an example. Plus I own and have had 4 in my family starting from 2001, so I can speak from first hand experience for the lack of maintenance required and the low overall cost of ownership.

Not enough information is known about the Volt - its not on the road yet. I'm following the story but there is still lots of conflicting information. It looks like Nissan will have an interesting all-electric offer soon and I hope its launch in Canada comes soon.Nissan LEAF Electric Car | Home | Nissan Canada Official Site
 

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Many of these people are misinformed when it comes to the many myths that surround hybrids
Your continued bashing of people who don't buy a Prius is getting very tiresome.

Here's a news flash for you. I don't like, nor have any use for a Prius and will never buy one.
 
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