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Yet again, no mention of the amount of CO2 emitted to produce the car. Prius batteries don't just appear out of nowhere.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
No mention because there is no significant impact on battery production and battery efficiencies are increasing rapidly. Early calculations were done assuming that hybrid batteries would need to be replaced often but so far, they have proven to last 'the life of the car'.

There have been many inaccuracies published about batteries and other hybrid issues that are simply wrong. Although new battery production is becoming even more efficient, Toyota has addressed these issues here in this 2003 brochure:

http://www.myprius.co.za/pgr_e.pdf
 

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AskPablo: Time to get a new car? | Triple Pundit: People, Planet, Profit

Compares energy required to manufacture a Prius vs. a Highlander, a Highlander Hybrid, and a Hummer H2.

A Prius uses a bit more energy to manufacture compared to a Highlander, and a Highlander Hybrid requires almost 50% more energy than a regular Highlander to build. A Hummer H2 uses as much as energy to manufacture as two regular Highlanders, and uses more gasoline per year than a Prius, a Highlander, and a Highlander Hybrid combined.

If you compared a Corolla to a Prius, the Corolla probably requires 2/3rds as much energy as a Prius to manufacture is what I'm saying. You probably break even in the end.
 

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AskPablo: Time to get a new car? | Triple Pundit: People, Planet, Profit

If you compared a Corolla to a Prius, the Corolla probably requires 2/3rds as much energy as a Prius to manufacture is what I'm saying. You probably break even in the end.
Not probably break even - the Prius uses much less over the lifetime of the car.

Prius Is Dirtier To Build Than Corolla...But Greener Than A Hummer - The Car Connection

There are more studies and articles - will post more tomorrow...I'm out for the night.
 

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It's only 6:44pm! Oh wait yea. :)

Also consider that the Prius is built in Japan so has to be shipped here. The Corolla is built in Canada with 71% North American content.
 

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It's only 6:44pm! Oh wait yea. :)

Also consider that the Prius is built in Japan so has to be shipped here. The Corolla is built in Canada with 71% North American content.
The amount of energy used in production of parts, manufacturing and shipping is minimal when factored in with the total energy used over the life of the car - see the MIT study in the article above. Plus the Prius has cleaner burning fuel technologies so there are fewer overall emissions.

If Prius sales increase in NA, Toyota will move production closer to the market like is is doing now in China and has done with most of its vehicles. One in 5 cars on the road in Japan are hybrids (Prius has the largest share of that market by far). NA consumers are still too married to impractical marketing with the promise of speed and power over fuel economy and lower emissions. It makes no sense to me at all.

Buy one and they will come... But hopefully we'll have plugin Prius' soon and/or more alternatives to get us away from 100% gas burners.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Here is a Prius vs Carolla CE (manual trans) over 5 years at today's fuel price (in Ontario) of $1.07 at 20,000 kms/year. The Carolla is a compact car - the Prius is mid-sized so there is a big difference in the size and other features of these cars.

 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Many people assume that they can buy a Carolla or a Civic and their environmental impact is lower than a Prius - this is not true.

With your reasoning, then why would anyone pay more for any car than they would for a Toyota Corolla? A Prius and a Corolla are not similar cars at all. Lots of people pay tens of thousands of dollars for a BMW, Lexus or (gulp) Cadillac badge and get no real value from it. At least a Prius is a very comfortable mid-sized car (Corolla is a lot smaller!), has amazing computer display that shows you how the car is working and plenty of storage space in the hatch-back.


What I would like to see is a Corolla hybrid - then you could make a similar comparison. Honda is still working on the Fit Hybrid which is also interesting as it's expected to retail in the same range as a Corolla and fits a similar compact car profile but Honda's hybrid technology is not as good as Toyota's. More hybrid or 100% electric choices would help.
 

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How do you jump from this:

At least a Prius is a very comfortable mid-sized car (Corolla is a lot smaller!)...
...to this:

What I would like to see is a Corolla hybrid - then you could make a similar comparison.
It would stilll be a Corolla, and still "...a lot smaller." Which was one of two reasons you were so quick to dismiss out of hand sinc's suggestion of a Corolla. (the other being a display screen that let's you know how your vehicle's doing). Clearly you are only concerned with your carbon footprint. Great - there's a car for you then. But a lot of us don't give a crap about our vehicle's emissions. Most people sensibly still put economy of operation over the environment - fortunately there are a lot vehicles that fit this bill. Speaking economically, I'd recommend a civic sedan. Using the ecochoice calculator - after 15 yrs you'd still come out on top dollar-wise. And they are very fine vehicles.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
How do you jump from this:



...to this:
Because Sinc was saying that the Prius is more expensive than the Corolla - and it is because it is a bigger car in a different category so its hard to make a fair comparison based on the $10,000 difference in the cost of the vehicle.

It is unfortunate that there are no compact hybrids to make a real comparison - but many more hybrids will go into production soon so things will get better.

If you don't consider emissions (not only carbon footprint) to be important, that is your right. I assume that you also think smoking is healthy and we should continue to dump toxic waste into our drinking water. It is not 'sensible' in any way to put economy of operation over the environment.
 

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If you don't consider emissions (not only carbon footprint) to be important, that is your right. I assume that you also think smoking is healthy and we should continue to dump toxic waste into our drinking water.
My behaviour (and a billion or more others) would seem to indicate this wouldn't it?
 

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f you don't consider emissions (not only carbon footprint) to be important, that is your right. I assume that you also think smoking is healthy and we should continue to dump toxic waste into our drinking water. It is not 'sensible' in any way to put economy of operation over the environment.
Once you begin going down this road, you would simply have to admit that your if your convenience is served you are perfectly willing to drive in a vehicle that dumps some toxic waste into your drinking water. You are perfectly happy to put your convenience ahead of the environment, provided its done in such a way that it meets with your approval.
 

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Because Sinc was saying that the Prius is more expensive than the Corolla - and it is because it is a bigger car in a different category so its hard to make a fair comparison based on the $10,000 difference in the cost of the vehicle..
The difference is way more than $10,000 in the cost of the vehicle. My point was it costs you $10,000 to save only $2,800 on fuel over a five year period. That's what just does not add up. The cost is far too steep for consumers to buy into that kind of program.
 

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The difference is way more than $10,000 in the cost of the vehicle. My point was it costs you $10,000 to save only $2,800 on fuel over a five year period. That's what just does not add up. The cost is far too steep for consumers to buy into that kind of program.
So why do people pay tens of thousands of dollars to drive cars with a status badge and no savings on fuel? People make these choices every day and they say hybrids are not 'economical'. Can you make sense out of this?
 

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So why do people pay tens of thousands of dollars to drive cars with a status badge and no savings on fuel? People make these choices every day and they say hybrids are not 'economical'. Can you make sense out of this?
Because they have been convinced through marketing that what they are doing is of great value to the environment, reducing the temperature of the Earth--and because they feel "cool " doing it.
 

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So why do people pay tens of thousands of dollars to drive cars with a status badge and no savings on fuel? People make these choices every day and they say hybrids are not 'economical'. Can you make sense out of this?
There is something amiss with your logic here. Because consumers consciously make un-economical choices doesn't mean they cannot recognize the uneconomical.
 

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The difference is way more than $10,000 in the cost of the vehicle. My point was it costs you $10,000 to save only $2,800 on fuel over a five year period. That's what just does not add up. The cost is far too steep for consumers to buy into that kind of program.
Yep the fuel savings over a Corolla would take about 20 years to pay the cost difference assuming you are putting are a bit more than average on the odometer. Just too expensive.

If you put a car out there with similar size and features of the Corolla at the same price as the Corolla boasting an 80+MPG (US) year round average, I will be a very enthusiastic booster.
 

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So why do people pay tens of thousands of dollars to drive cars with a status badge and no savings on fuel? People make these choices every day and they say hybrids are not 'economical'. Can you make sense out of this?
That has nothing to do with the case example you presented. If you have the salary to afford the luxury vehicle, fill your boots. My point is that the ROI takes far too long to make it attractive for an average vehicle buyer to participate in the program.

If they could reduce the savings time by upping the mileage or by reducing the cost of the vehicle, it becomes much more palatable to average car buyers.
 
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