[Macaholic]

Are Mac fans critisizing Apple more harshly, these days? If so, is it justifiable?

http://www.macnet2.com/more.php?id=427_0_1_0

I must confess I didnlt read the entire rant. But, I will say that the canadian price for a new OS upgrade every year is a bit much to take. I also just bought a .Mac subscription and I'm out $160.00 after taxes. Don;t get me wrong: they're are both great technoloigies... but, are they THAt great? THAT often?

All of that is minor, however, in comparison to hardware defects. Anything Apple sells should be of the HIGHEST production and materials quality. BAR NONE! And, if something goers wrong, they should lick our boots EVERY TIME and fix it. A friend of mine -- a switcher -- bought a MDD Dual 1GHz G4. The thing (as we all know) was as loud as a tank! people al over the world complained of it, and Apple has always touted about how quiet their proiducts are. I know this usually refers to iMacs, but Powermac are used in many environments where there is a LOW TOLARANCE for noise (such as recording studios). They gave my bud such grief as he PUSHED to get that power supply replacement. With the money one spends on Apple hardware -- and the image that Apple tries to project of their productsa -- there should be First Class service, all the way! But, you have loud G4s, had defective CRTs in eMacs, "white dot" issues in iBooks/Powermacs -- AND single G5 Powermacs that are generally SLOWER than the dual G4 Powermacs they replace...

Dual 1.25GHz 32 bitG4, 1 MB L3 cache, a paltry 167MHz FSB, DDR333 SDRAM, ATA/100 drives

Single 1.6GHz 64 bitG5, NO L3 cache (WT heck?), 800 MHz FSB, 333 MHz PC2700 DDR RAM, Serial ATA...

and, you get THIS??! :

http://www.barefeats.com/g5.html

http://www.barefeats.com/pentium4.html

Thank God that at least the dual G5 kills the dual G4:

http://www.barefeats.com/g5sum.html

I don't know. Maybe I'm being unreasonable, but I would think that any ofthose G5's should NEVER EVER be bettered by ANY G4. Am I wrong, here?

BTW, someone posted this at another user group ("OS X For Users" at themacintoshguy.com):

"Monday Apple will bring out a G5 1.8/DP and the single 1.6 and 1.8 will be lowered in price. That's what a dealer told me.

Paul Moortgat"

Now, THIS would be very VERY cool. The I had always thought that the mid-level should be a duallie, too.

 

[groovetube]

Hey bud

Yea, I spoke to a downtown Apple dealer today about powerbook 17s etc, and when I asked about the 1.6, after a few minutes he sorta said under his breath it might be wise to wait a bit.

But yea. My switching experience is less than positive. Except... of course OS X. The only reason I'm still using macs.

 

[Macaholic]

hey man

OS X is da bomb... but their hardware could EASILY be better constructed and assembled. There's NO excuse, as this IS Apple.

So, what happened with your iBook? And, are you really going to dump your MDD G44 and iBook for a G5? Go dual or don't bother, man. I'll bet that Apple's sales breakdown across their powermac line would show that more people are ponying up for the duallie. Any of you retailers here want to add to that?

 

[monokitty]

Dual 1.25GHz 32 bitG4, 1 MB L3 cache, a paltry 167MHz FSB, DDR333 SDRAM, ATA/100 drives

Single 1.6GHz 64 bitG5, NO L3 cache (WT heck?), 800 MHz FSB, 333 MHz PC2700 DDR RAM, Serial ATA...

and, you get THIS??! :

And you're surprised, why...? I see you bolded the 32-bit and 64-bit processors in each machine. Just in case you didn't know, a 64-bit processor is just as slow a 32-bit one when nothing can take advantage of the 64-bit technology, wouldn't you agree? And no, Panther is not 64-bit enchanced or optimized to take advantage of 64-bit processors. I also see you seem surpised that the G5 doesn't have a L3 cache - no need; it's L2 cache is running at almost 7 times the speed of the G4's L3 is, making the G5 still better at the end.

The difference between the SATA 150 and ATA/100 is almost pointless to mention as well, since the difference between the two isn't much at all. I think Apple just used them because they're becoming the standard today, they're hot-pluggable and slightly faster.

Secondly, the G4 is a dual processor while the G5 is a single processor. This makes a large difference, because Mac OS X does take advantage of dual-processors, already beating out the low-end G5 instantly just because of this.

 

[Macaholic]

You're right. It slipped my mind during my frenzy about Panther being mostly 32 bit. Nevertheless, my bitching remains. They SHOULD bee faster, yet. And Apple's customers SHOULD enjoy a higher level of QC and experience little to no grief when problems of APPLE's making exist.

Nobody should mistake my rant for being disgruntled enough to reverse-switch. I wouldn't migrate to Windows in a million years.

 

[SINC]

To cut to the chase, I think the article is essentially correct. Apple owners I know have become much more cynical and to a degree wary of Apple, its products, and its policy on releasing too much new software/hardware, too often and too expensive. Jaguar/Panther and iBook G3/G4 are just two examples. The quality issue with the Powerbook 15" G4 is not helping. For the life of me, I do not understand how Apple can do so well with the 12.1" and the 17" and bomb so badly on the 15". It boggles the mind.

 

[groovetube]

Don't know what I want.

I just want something that works. The duallie sounds like a chainsaw, and the logic board fried in the iBook. And it seems like a reacurring issue. Lately I have been working on the pc sometimes just to get some quiet...
Honestly, I just don't have time to deal with these issues.

 

[parousia]

Let me get this straight....

You work on the PC now just to get yourself some quiet?

I have not had a system crash in over 1.5 yrs, and that to me is quiet.

Mac has the BEST record for quality, hands down, the service another company gives (DELL) ranks it at the tops as well.... but the repair % is much better for MAC.

Get your Dual repaired there is a fix for the WINDTUNNEL syndrome and get over it.

Parousia.

Statistics are compiled by Consumer Reports every year on Computers... take a look at what they say for Apple.

 

[monokitty]

I have not had a system crash in over 1.5 yrs, and that to me is quiet.

Same with me (under Mac OS X). I find my Mac stable as can possibly be.

 

[groovetube]

Yes I *did* get the the "wind tunnel fix", and no, I will *not* get over it thank you. The fix didn't work. At least not for long. I work in an office with another graphics company, and everyone there knows the noise as they can hear it outside of my space quite well. I paid over 4000 freaking dollars for a machine that the noise goes right through me. The response I've had with dealers and techs range from, it'll xx dollars an hour to look at it, even though it's under warranty (thank you carbon, where I bought it), to it'll sit in our shop for 2 or 3 days before we can get it on a bench, but $180 extra we can "push it faster. Your attitude is just like the crap attitude I encountered at Apple. So Pardon me if I'm a little irked. And yes, get this straight, I go on the PC (an AMD system that's not particularly quiet as a mouse, but no problem except windows) to work for a while in peace. And when I'm doing something that I can do with small screen real estate, I'll use the iBook.

Statistics don't mean crap to me and my problem.

So thanks for the um, not so helpful suggestion.

Thankfully someone pointed me to a downtown dealer today that may be able to help. So maybe there's light, er, peace at the end of the tunnel.

Like I said, OS X is awesome and is the reason why I'm sticking it out. Hopefully soon, I'll have a happy ending.

[ November 14, 2003, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: groovetube ]

 

[Kosh]

I also see you seem surpised that the G5 doesn't have a L3 cache - no need; it's L2 cache is running at almost 7 times the speed of the G4's L3 is, making the G5 still better at the end.

Actually, the real reason there is no L3 cache is because the FSB is so fast that the actual memory in a G5 is the equivalent of a G4 L3 cache. L3 cache isn't needed when you can access memory over a fast FSB. The L3 cache in the G4 was making up for the G4's slow FSB.

Edit: and maybe the L3 cache in the G4 was also making up for the small G4 L2 cache. Until the last revision of the G4, the G4 had a small L2 cache.

 

[Macaholic]

At any rate, am I being unreasonable of expect superior performance out of Apple's low-en next-gen Powermac over the high-end last-gen?

Also guys, I think it's important -- and The Right Thing To Do™ -- to drag Apple or errant retailers up on the rug when they goof up. That way, we can hopefully ensure that the macworld thrives and gets better and better.

It's our platform to lose, citizens.
(hope that wasn't too corny )

 

[ghiebert]

At any rate, am I being unreasonable of expect superior performance out of Apple's low-en next-gen Powermac over the high-end last-gen?

I'd say yes, you are being unreasonable. I cannot remember any generational upgrade in history where the new low end tops the old high end. It most certainly is not the norm. And why would a single G5 be expected to beat a dual G4 whose CPUs run at 80% of the same speed?

If you think $179 a year is too much to pay for an OS upgrade, then skip every second upgrade. Jag is still as good an OS as it was a month ago. To me, though, it's worth $179 a year just to get Apple's development tools. (For a software developer, Mac OS X is way cheaper in the long run than XP Pro with Visual Studio.)

I wouldn't pay even $50 for .Mac myself. You choose to pay $160 and then complain about it? I don't get it.

 

[Macaholic]

My comment about purchasing .Mac was not a complaint about it, sepifically. I appreciate the extra server space and dead-simple web page creation. I only brought it up in concert with the the annual OS upgrade, and that all of that can mount. As for Panther, if I was running a fast er mac than a G4/450, I probably might have taken a pass. But, I had read and of Panther being faster than Jag, and every little bit helps, down here at the low-end. But, Expose is truly phenominal, and I'm glad to use it. It actually caused me to get a multi-button mouse and map Expose to it.

The quality control in their hardware was my main bone of contention. I think the should be keepng a closer eye on this. As for the 10.2.8 debacle, I forgave them on that one, as it is indeed rare that Apple screws up an OS update -- until Panther's Firewire drive and Filevault bugs, that is!

 

[Goobernatorial]

I thought the Firewire problem was in the actual bridge chips Oxford was putting out, Apple can't fix these problems alone, drive manufacturers need to put out firmware updates.

I think either Apple or the drive manufacturers should have been aware of this problem b4 the the 10.3 was released, unfortunately since this problem occurs when a firewire device is connected during startup, it seems to have slipped through. Apple did put out pre-release copies of this OS and never got a complaint of it, so I think it was an honest mistake. Even though it was a colossal blunder.

Apple probably has no more hardware design problems than anyone other pc manufacturer. And regarding the noisy MDD they did supply a fix for it, and they did design the G5 to specifically address the problem of noise, so I'm not sure why you are whining.

If the new MDD fix was installed improperly than your beef is with whomever installed it for you.

 

[Bertrand (Fr)]

Hello,

Panther is actually one of the best product issue from Apple minds and enginerie.
But this cat has need to be controlled and drawn up.
In old time I used to say about software , only odd ones are good, the other are for test.

[Edit]I was speaking about version of software[/Edit]

[ November 15, 2003, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: Fr Bertrand ]

 

[groovetube]

Quote.."And regarding the noisy MDD they did supply a fix for it, and they did design the G5 to specifically address the problem of noise, so I'm not sure why you are whining.

If the new MDD fix was installed improperly than your beef is with whomever installed it for you."

I don't know why it's so hard to understand here. I realize we all pledge allegience to the mighty Apple and everything that Apple passes down is gold but...

Read my post. I got the fix. I put in the fix. I put it in properly. (I've built hundreds of computers) It was quite*er* for a little while, but started to get louder. Now it's as loud as before. Now read the read the response I've gotten from dealers. Who are you to tell me to stop whining? If you're going to pass judgement, read the posts, or learn what the problem is and what happened. So sorry if this upsets you.
And, how does Apple fixing the problem in the G5 help me? Are you saying I should go out and spend another load of cash? Is this an "Apple solution"?

 

[groovetube]

I should add that I've had several positive dealings with macdoc. (although he's hard to get a hold of )

Someone suggested Creative Technology for service, so I spoke with Creative Technology and they said they could give me a time when they can get it on the bench and look at it. If it needs parts, I can take it back to use while the parts come in, and I can bring it in when they're ready to install (if nessecary) . And no charge because it's under warranty. (and I didn't even buy it there!) This makes far too much sense. This is music to my ears.

 

[Macaholic]

And regarding the noisy MDD they did supply a fix for it, and they did design the G5 to specifically address the problem of noise, so I'm not sure why you are whining.

This is a stupid reply. "It's broken. But buy a new one! That'll fix it!" What the hell are we talking about, here? A broken disposable lighter??!

We have ALWAYS enjoyed superior construction and assembly by Apple. Well, most of the time, we have. The Powerbook 520 that was my first Mac was pretty damned flimsy. But, that and anything pre-Jobs, I forgive. Anything since, however, should be either bang-on, or fixed witthout hassle. These aren;t PCs; THEY'RE MACS, and should be a cut above and held to that standard.

 

[Macaholic]

Panther is actually one of the best product issue from Apple minds and enginerie.
But this cat has need to be controlled and drawn up.

Hey, I REALLY LOVED Panther out of the box. But it has dragged down a lot, and it happens at unpredictable times. I'm not convinced that Apple is the cause of it, however. I have moved any 3rd party components I felt safe in doing out of the root library and into my User Library. I have also created an additional dummy account. If my Mac grinds down to a halt again, I'll then log into the dummy account as well and see how IT responds. Hopefully, the dummy account will act as a "stock Apple bench" for me to compare. We'll see.