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Discussion Starter #1
For decades of my life there has been an undercurrent among Alberta's population for separation. It's like the tide: Depending on who is in Ottawa at the time, the swell comes & goes.

Living through PET's rape of Alberta in the 80's (NEP) made me a lifetime member of the "Albertan before Canada" club and, quite frankly, I have no memory of being a Canadian first. Perhaps as a wide-eyed youth. I honestly can't recall.

I do, however, have memories of the wave of Western separation that washed over many conversations, spawning such dreams as the Western Canada Concept political party, among others.

The Reform Party's efforts to make the West more relevant, with their "The West Wants In" slogan, was the most successful of the grass roots movements. However, it fell far short of what Alberta truly needs.

As much of a prick as Cretien was, he didn't seem to pick the separation scab much. Harper made things a bit easier to take but failed to deal with what westerners in general & Alberta in particular would term critical.

Now we have Jr., the airhead. A twice dropped out grad student, a snowboard instructor, a substitute dama teacher (I'd still like to find out what happened there...), a trust fund baby born with a silver spoon in his mouth who has never worked a day in his life.

The swell of separation is higher than I ever recall, largely due to The Dope's complete distain for Alberta (he learned well from his father) and at least partly because of Red Rachel. It's no longer just a few people talking loudly. It's many men & women quietly voicing their concern for the arrogance of the Laurentian Elite.

I ran across this post today & there are a string of comments, including quotes from articles, that just struck a note today.

I'm tired of the central Canadian a$$holes pulling the puppet strings. I'm tired of our $12 billion transfer payments going to a province that refuses to develop its own resources & is content to receive gov't welfare. I'm tired of being told we can't build pipelines to move our petroleum product to world markets. I'm tired of leftist, Progressive group-think. I'm tired of having French on my cereal box. I'm tired of dysfunctional Kaybeck businesses receiving gov't welfare. I'm tired of being Canada's milch cow.

It's long overdue, my Alberta friends. It's time to grab the bull by the horns & get the hell out.

It's time to secede.
 

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You know I can see your angst here, but let me outline the case as I did for a Quebecer friend of mine...
1. No currency...you can’t use Canadian dollars
2. No shipping access for your products...although if you joined with B.C. you would have a stronger case
3. No Trade agreements...NAFTA, USMCA, TPP, or EU...you would be hit with the General Tarrif of 35% or so
4. No Post Office
5. Limited health care,
6 Limited to no Canada Pension
7. Limited Fire Department, Police, Schooling
8. No passports...you have to create your own and sign visa and access agreements
9. Fractured civil government
10. No external financing for infrastructure.
11. No oil subsidies....you still get them
12 No to limited provincial trade agreements
13. No border patrols , customs and excise etc...
14. Landlocked.

Now as I say if you, B.C. and say SK got together maybe.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Some quotes from the comments noted above:

Why stay? This is a serious question, and it deserves a serious answer — not vacuous platitudes and emotional rhetoric, but sober, solid, rational analysis addressing the economic, moral, cultural, and political advantages of staying. I do not believe a case for staying can be made. And whatever temporary dislocations would attend separation are negligible compared to what we risk by doing nothing, allowing ourselves to drift further into the morass of contemporary Canada.
We should undertake a move toward independence with a whole-hearted intention of achieving it, not as simply a tactic whereby to get (temporarily) a “better deal” from Ottawa (i.e., get some of our money back, provided as a sop to assuage “western alienation”). What Albertans have to understand is that the present Canadian reality is profoundly prejudicial to the interests of our children and grandchildren — economically, culturally, morally, politically — and that there is no realistic prospect of it ever getting better in their lifetime. Quite the contrary: there is every likelihood that it will only get worse, as Canada goes the degenerating way of Old Europe: stagnant, corrupt, spiritless, impotent.
Better still, use the $12 billion to reduce the taxes on Alberta’s citizens and businesses by that amount; let people spend their earnings as they please, and transform Alberta, already the most vibrant part of Canada, into the most attractive economic environment in all of North America. True, the population would double within 10 years, but Alberta is a big place, of almost unlimited potential. However, to realize that potential, we have to do one small thing: Declare our independence — withdraw from the Canadian federation, become an independent commonwealth with our own sovereign government, directly answerable to no one but the people of Alberta.
An independent Alberta would be every bit as politically and economically viable as Norway, Finland, Denmark, New Zealand and several other advanced countries of comparable population (but of far less natural resources).
Alberta could have had a Heritage fund of close to 1 Trillion dollars now but all the money is taxed away through various scams like Equalization and handed to Quebec and points east to buy votes for the ruling class in Ottawa.
Alberta needs to separate. Countless eastern PMs have savaged Alberta and denied its citizens for far too long now. It’s up to Alberta to make the move for a sovereign and distinct nation serving its own interests and prosperity... Alberta dies a little more daily under Trudeau.
It’s ironic that Alberta woild have better leverage with Ottawa by being outside of Canada. Without being hobbled by federal equalization, taxes, regulations and court rulings the ball and chain of asymmetrical confederation would be removed. Not just from energy but also agriculture.

No more egg and dairy marketing boards. No more made in Ottawa regulatory barriers. The opportunity to negotiate its own trade deals. Significantly lower energy prices, lower income/corporate taxes and a shorter, more transparent permitting process would spur investment and higher per capita income. Alberta’s was already the highest in Canada and one of the highest in the world at over $59,000, which was between Norway and Switzerland in 2016. The Canadian average was quite a few pegs down at about $42,000 (conference board of Canada). Alberta is also the highest per capita contributor to the federal treasury in Ottawa and gets the least per capita transfers from Ottawa. All that money currently going to Ottawa would stay in Alberta.

More money, more freedom, less abusive bullshit — what’s the incentive to stay in Canada? Learn from the errors of Brexit though. Make a cleaner , quicker break.
Letting Alberta walk away would remove whatever ability Ottawa still had to pay its debts. The Canadian dollar would go to zero, wiping out the mortgage debt of all Ca[n]adians.
All emphasis mine.
 

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FeXL, you can post all the rants you want, and I do see your point here, until you answer question number 1, which my Quebec friend couldn’t answer either, you are going nowhere.
 

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1. No currency...you can’t use Canadian dollars.
Yes, you can use Canadian dollars or American dollars if you choose. However, you will have minimal effect on monetary policy until you develop your own currency. The EU countries have minimal control over monetary policy, but use the Euro.

2. No shipping access for your products...although if you joined with B.C. you would have a stronger case.
They don't have access now. Separation won't make it worse and would probably make it better regarding US access. However, they would still use roads, rail and all other forms of transportation.

3. No Trade agreements...NAFTA, USMCA, TPP, or EU...you would be hit with the General Tarrif of 35% or so.

So negotiate a trade agreement.

4. No Post Office.
Bonus! Post offices are a dying business, but you would still be able to deliver mail within your province. How is that impossible?

5. Limited health care,
Why? Equalization money now stays in Alberta. Better health care.

6 Limited to no Canada Pension.

The Pensions belong to individuals, not the province. Set up your own system.

7. Limited Fire Department, Police, Schooling.
What are you smoking RPS? These are local matters.

8. No passports...you have to create your own and sign visa and access agreements.
OK.

9. Fractured civil government.
Why?

10. No external financing for infrastructure.
No financing of external infrastructure by Alberta. It's a wash.

11. No oil subsidies....you still get them.
I'll bite. How much do they total?

12 No to limited provincial trade agreements

Canada still doesn't allow free trade across its own provincial borders.

13. No border patrols , customs and excise etc...
Create them.

14. Landlocked.
Because BC shippers would refuse to ship Alberta goods? Why?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
You know I can see your angst here, but let me outline the case as I did for a Quebecer friend of mine...
1. No currency...you can’t use Canadian dollars
2. No shipping access for your products...although if you joined with B.C. you would have a stronger case
3. No Trade agreements...NAFTA, USMCA, TPP, or EU...you would be hit with the General Tarrif of 35% or so
4. No Post Office
5. Limited health care,
6 Limited to no Canada Pension
7. Limited Fire Department, Police, Schooling
8. No passports...you have to create your own and sign visa and access agreements
9. Fractured civil government
10. No external financing for infrastructure.
11. No oil subsidies....you still get them
12 No to limited provincial trade agreements
13. No border patrols , customs and excise etc...
14. Landlocked.

Now as I say if you, B.C. and say SK got together maybe.
I've prepared a few lists of my own for Kaybeck separatists.

As to yours:
1: Who cares? Don't want a seat on the BoC like PQ does, either. In a matter of a few short years, the Canuck buck will be worthless because, without Alberta's revenues rolling into Ottawa, they won't be able to pay their bills.
2: Shipping access would be negotiated PDQ once the RoC found out that anything that crossed our borders (air & land) would be subject to massive taxations.
3: Who cares? We have enough resources to be able to negotiate terms of our own.
4: So what? A private owned/operated postal service would not only run more efficiently, but cheaper, as well.
5: Why? We're already paying for a large portion of our healthcare ourselves. Imagine how much health care $12 billion/year buys.
6: Who cares? It's practically worthless anyways. Again, we could design our own.
7: Why? Save money & raise efficiency by privatizing them.
8: No worries. I'd be burning mine over incense anyways.
9: As opposed to the fractured federal gov't? What could possibly get worse?
10: Oh, you mean like for pipelines? (/sarc)
11: Yeah, those massive <snort> oil subsidies on fewer & fewer barrels of oil that we're actually allowed to ship. Once again, if we're not sending $12 billion/yr to Ottawa, they can keep their f'ing oil subsidies.
12: Who cares? We'll negotiate our own international ones.
13: Like any independent country, we'd create our own.
14: We're landlocked now, FFS!

Further:
1: Don't want the armed forces.
2: We'll pay out our share of the national debt in exchange for any/all pension monies contributed.
3: All First Immigrants who want to remain with the RoC are more than welcome to their land, with the acknowledgement that they will be surrounded by an international border.

That's a start.

Is it going to be easy? Not a chance. It's going to take good, ol' fashioned head down & ass up work. However, that's nothing that those of us who were born & raised here aren't used to already.

As far as BC & SK are concerned, I'm not interested in doing this for them. This is entirely selfish and for and on Alberta's terms alone. Period.

That said, if others want to join us, I'd be happy to sit down & talk with them.

Once again, no way in hell the lower mainland joins us voluntarily. Diametrically opposed. Frankly, I ain't interested in having them along for the ride anyways. They are part of the problem, not part of the solution. The last GD thing I want to do is invite to the party the same idjits who are already blocking access to tidewater.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Now, Rps, I hav a question for you, from my first quote:

Why stay?
 

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Now, Rps, I hav a question for you, from my first quote:

Why stay?
It’s called security in numbers and economy of scale. That said, as I have mentioned before, the West should start it’s own national party and run against the Libs or Con. The Reform Party worked but forgot their mandate.......
 

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I see a huge obstacle being CPP and OAS. Far too many seniors would be out of house and home without these supplements to their retirement income. Quebec is in far better shape in this area having long since established their own version of CPP.

Another is the new nation would be easy pickins for the US of A and the lure of statehood. Having dealt with health care in that nation, that is a road I do not wish to travel. Also if you think Albertans feel cut off from Ottawa, that's nothing compared to what it would be like dealing with the District of Corruption.

I do agree that a solid independence movement is vital as without it the province will continue to be victimized by Ottawa.
 

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I don't think Alberta's "numbers" are being given security. The rest of the population seems to be working actively against its interests.

I also don't see how "economy of scale" applies here.

It’s called security in numbers and economy of scale. That said, as I have mentioned before, the West should start it’s own national party and run against the Libs or Con. The Reform Party worked but forgot their mandate.......
 

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Discussion Starter #11
It’s called security in numbers and economy of scale.
Neither of those sound like concrete reasons to me. Feel free to elaborate.

That said, as I have mentioned before, the West should start it’s own national party and run against the Libs or Con. The Reform Party worked but forgot their mandate.......
Tried. Failed. Ain't worth wasting time/resources doing it again.

And it won't work because we simply do not have the nationwide support we need. If we did, we wouldn't need to be heading down this road now.

As to the Reform Party, it did not work. If it had, again, we wouldn't be sitting here where we are today.

We have two options: Reach for the lube or reach for the pitchfork.

Frankly, I'm tired of the lube...
 

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FeXL, the Reform didn’t fail.......they changed. The West, meaning B.C., Ab., Sk. And Mb have about 104 Federal seats. If a West Party got the the majority they would have considerable influence on the Canadian government...much like Quebec when it is in its separatist rants. The key is not to try and be a National Party, but be a Local Party running in a national election. Reforms mistake was trying to be a national party...
 

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Discussion Starter #13
FeXL, the Reform didn’t fail.......they changed.
They failed because they changed. They abandoned their original mandate & forgot who & what put them there. Same with Alberta's Wildrose Party. Any way you measure that it's a complete & utter failure.

Period.

The West, meaning B.C., Ab., Sk. And Mb have about 104 Federal seats. If a West Party got the the majority they would have considerable influence on the Canadian government...
In response to your observation about a potential 104 seats I was going to say you'd be lucky to get 60. Just checked Wiki, Reform got 52 seats in '93 and 60 in '97. And, in '97 they never took a seat east of Manitoba. That's a far cry from your 104...

That said, I don't care about the Canadian gov't. No matter what the shape, form, stripe, smell, colour, whatever, I've had it with the bastards. The only influence I want to leave with them is the dust settling on the road as Alberta leaves confederation.

I'm tired of negotiating for the f'ing table scraps while the central, eastern & coastal areas get fine wine & caviar, on my tax dollar, no less! I'm well past "negotiations" which, in western Canada, is politispeak for BOHICA. In addition, I'm sure as hell not interested in teaming up with the f'ing NDP to overthrow a minority gov't.

The only way you get what you want here in the west is with a majority and only if the leader of said party isn't some effete, wet noodle, milksop idiot.

And, and, even if I was interested in said negotiations, there's no way in hell you get all 104 seats voting the same way in the first place! Do you honestly believe that a voter from the east end of Burrard St. in Hongcouver has a scintilla of political common ground with Kevin the dirt rancher from Manyberries, AB? Or a Sherwood Park Prog with the Rama, SK cemetery caretaker? Or the curator from the fossil museum in Morden, MB with some stoner on Gabriola Island, BC?

HA!
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
A few more quotes & resources.

Here’s some trivia : if Alberta and Saskatchewan separated and formed a new country, it would be bigger than the combined area of Germany, France and the UK. And bigger than Ontario. (Wiki)

The GDP per capita of Alberta alone and a combined AL-Sask is higher than every OECD country except Luxembourg and Norway.

A separate country would be big, wealthy and rich in natural resources (oil, natgas, uranuim, grain, oilseeds, livestock, potash, lumber, legumes, maybe even diamonds etc.) to export.
Bold mine.

The article in the following link addresses points made by a NatPo writer in an article written earlier this year on why Alberta shouldn't leave. I don't agree with everything he says but most of the article makes sense.

The responder seems to couch his argument for secession in terms of joining the US. For the record, I ain't interested in becoming the 51st state.

Alberta Separation Is A Great Idea

This accusation/response I found most interesting & is a position I find myself agreeing with almost entirely:

He suggests Alberta would have to pay $71 billion in order to pick up our share of the national debt!

Alberta has paid more into Canada than it has gotten back in federal expenditures to the tune of almost $221.4 billion between 2007 to 2015. Canada can pay us the difference upon our exit and we can just forget about all the other money leading up to 2007. Fair?
Bold mine.

The almost part comes in when the Feds start dickering about nickels & dimes & we start talking real loud-like about the differential prior to 2007...

The next link is to a pdf file containing a report/template by the above writer on how to create a nation of Western Canada (which includes BC, AB, SK, MB). Again, I don't agree with everything but I found it interesting brain food:

A Better Way
 

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...and is Alberta, the country, prepared to deal with the environmental disaster that the oil & gas industry has and is leaving behind?

The story of Alberta’s $100-billion well liability problem. How did we get here?

Landowners once promised a fair share for hosting oil and gas infrastructure on their properties say Alberta’s liability management system is broken. They're worried the regulator has long been propping up the industry by exaggerating profits and underestimating the costs of cleanup — often leaving landowners with a tangled mess of wells, rusty pipes and contaminated soil.

* * *​

the government — and the Alberta Energy Regulator in particular — is not only struggling to deal with Alberta’s long-standing well issue, but that the organization is propping up a beleaguered industry without requiring the necessary assurances that wells will be cleaned up in the future.

Critics worry that not only are orphan wells already sitting neglected in farmers’ fields across the province, but that a whole new wave of inactive wells are poised to be thrust onto the Orphan Well Association — and that, increasingly, taxpayers may be forced to shoulder the bill.

It has been estimated that at the current rate of spending, it would take 177 years to clean up the province’s inactive, suspended, abandoned and orphan wells.
 

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Assuming we take "The Narwhal" at its word, how do you see this affecting any such decision to separate?

...and is Alberta, the country, prepared to deal with the environmental disaster that the oil & gas industry has and is leaving behind?

The story of Alberta’s $100-billion well liability problem. How did we get here?

Landowners once promised a fair share for hosting oil and gas infrastructure on their properties say Alberta’s liability management system is broken. They're worried the regulator has long been propping up the industry by exaggerating profits and underestimating the costs of cleanup — often leaving landowners with a tangled mess of wells, rusty pipes and contaminated soil.

* * *​

the government — and the Alberta Energy Regulator in particular — is not only struggling to deal with Alberta’s long-standing well issue, but that the organization is propping up a beleaguered industry without requiring the necessary assurances that wells will be cleaned up in the future.

Critics worry that not only are orphan wells already sitting neglected in farmers’ fields across the province, but that a whole new wave of inactive wells are poised to be thrust onto the Orphan Well Association — and that, increasingly, taxpayers may be forced to shoulder the bill.

It has been estimated that at the current rate of spending, it would take 177 years to clean up the province’s inactive, suspended, abandoned and orphan wells.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Assuming we take "The Narwhal" at its word, how do you see this affecting any such decision to separate?
Precisely.

If the "problem" actually exists, then we'll have it either with or without the RoC. If the latter, then the $12 billion/yr we send to Ottawa en route to Kaybeck would pay that down in a matter of years.

The math is left as an exercise for the Progs...
 

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Why leaving Canada makes sense for Alberta, and U.S. would likely welcome a new state



https://nationalpost.com/news/polit...vnXtGHoD8o49J7Ejsk8PTX8iBRTyaFAZ43tnSw8w4pYOs
Having experience with both US Medicare and the Canadian system, I can assure you the US system is orders of magnitude worse than Canada's. Also I gave up my US citizenship for very solid reasons and you could not pay me enough to re-instate it. Nor do I ever again want to see a 1040 or any other IRS form, in this or any other life.

Alberta remains landlocked and therefore vulnerable should it strike out on its own. To me the threat of being part of the USA is the biggest argument against independence.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I Want A New Country

How long has this been going on for now? 40 years?

As concern grows among workers and politicians over Alberta’s embattled energy sector, a massive rally got underway in the city of Grande Prairie, Alta., to support the resource industry and to call for pipelines to be built.

Sure. Things are bound to turn around any day now.
More:

We aren’t just a monumental cash cow for the government. We provide opportunities for families across the country,” Bernard Hancock, known as Bernard the Roughneck, told the crowd at a park in Grande Prairie, Alta., on Sunday.

“It puts chicken in the pot in New Glasgow, Nova Scotia. It puts a roast in the oven in Miramichi, New Brunswick. It puts tortiere on the fork in Granby, Quebec. And it puts tofu on the table in Toronto and Vancouver!”
Bold mine.

From the 2nd link:

‘We are not at war with Alberta’: Quebec stands firm against pipeline

There is a growing conflict developing between Alberta and Quebec. Last week, Premier François Legault sparked outrage when he called Alberta oil “dirty energy.”

Alberta Premier Rachel Notley has accused Quebec of hypocrisy for accepting equalization payments from oil revenue.
More:

“Yes, I heard it created quite a storm in Alberta,” said Justice Minister Sonia LeBel. “We are not at war with Alberta. We always have good relationships with Alberta (and) we intend to continue that way.
Bold mine.

Bull$h!t and up yours...
 
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