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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
YouTube - Stop SPP Protest - Union Leader stops provocateurs

You be the judge, just for fun.

I find the behaviour of the guys in question to be suspicious. Very suspicious. At the same time, would police be so dumb as to do that with such a small true protest group, such poor play-actors and, apparently, no sensible exit strategy? At that point, I'm not sure which would be more worrying, the tactic or the incompetence.



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I would like to hear more about this news conference. I guess I could have just walked over there. :baby:


There's also some stuff about matching soles on the boots of the police and "protestors". I'm not sure how much that means, and I hope that's not the "proof" referred to in the link above.

A picture:
montebello20aot050highlcv4.png (image)
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
It turns out that it was part of the proof, although the tread pattern is also the same unless there has been a lot of photo editting. That's weak and not "proof" -- it is also particularly stupid of the police if the accusations are true.

Still, that video is just odd. The suspects (of something) move closer to the police, one of them chats a little, and they push a little and get hauled off. The old guy was a little scary with the screaming, but scarier than cops in riot gear? The whole thing was theatric. Too strange but not evidence of anything. Maybe just a slow day on the protest circuit, maybe something else.

So I wait...

For more pre-judging by ehmacers! It is usually quite easy to get quick judgements based on little evidence. Maybe my mistake was in asking for the judgements. ;)
 

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I can't see anything in any of those links to convince me that anything happened to be upset about.

Seems to me if protesters mask themselves they should be dispatched from the scene.

They remind me of anonymous phone callers who dislike my columns. I ask them once for their name and phone number before I will listen to their comments. When they refuse, I simply hang up on them, no courage of conviction and all. :D
 

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I find it odd that in spite of the fact that one of the hooligans was holding a chunk of rock, the police did nothing even though he was standing right in front of them. I guess it's okay so as long as you don't do anything.

The fact that the boots are all the same makes it even more suspicious. But what can you say? Sometimes police send undercover officers to scope out troublemakers in the crowd. I never thought they'd be the ones causing the trouble.
 

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When the 'leaders' met in Quebec City, police followed peaceful demonstrators until out of sight until the press, and beat them. Couples out walking, who had nothing to do with the demos, were assaulted if they ran into the police. Forget about due process.
 

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I disagree with you Beej.
The government has tried to paint the protesters has radicals and Harper has bizarrely called them "sad". Image if the provateurs had started a riot, what would the media be reporting?
If you look at the pictures these are a cross-section of the population - heck they look like older people for the most part - the media would not be saying that grandma rampaged....

So how does one feel about the establishment playing such a role? Tying to discredit people in a democracy by there transparent tactics. Yes they were "outted"this time, but what about the next? And does it make you trust them more now? Were did the order come for such a move.


Now the boot angle seems to be one that some are latching onto to dismiss the claims.
Odd how the "protesters" have the same (as in exact) soles as police boots (Vibram 134AR).

While much of this is circumstantial, did you actually think that there would be more proof? Yes the stupidity is endemic in the police force but such tactics would not be disclosed publicly.




Looking at the video there is something "odd" about the whole police/"provacteurs" behaviour. They "provateurs" instead of running away from the police seem to want to run into their arms. Can't wait to hear the official lies... uhmm I mean spin...

It's lovely to have democratic rights undermined....
 

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Would any of us be really surprised if this were all true?

Of course they're stupid enough. Have you ever asked a few wannabe cops why they want to be cops? They want to use guns and kick some ass.

There are some legit heroes in there, but few and far between. I like the good ones.

This is not beyond our leader's powers, morals and abilities. And he can't be much worse than many of the other politicians.
 

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Within the United States the COINTELPRO program of the Federal Bureau of Investigation had FBI agents posing as political radicals in order to disrupt the activities of radical political groups in the U.S., such as the Black Panthers, Ku Klux Klan, and the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. The activities of agents provocateurs against dissidents in Imperial Russia was one of the grievances that led to the Russian Revolution of 1917. Yevno Azef is an example of agent provocateur.
New York Police officers have been accused of acting as agents provocateurs during protests against the Republican National Convention in New York City
Agent provocateur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I disagree with you Beej.
...........
While much of this is circumstantial, did you actually think that there would be more proof?
With what part?
...........
There will need to be more "proof" than the same soles and the odd behaviour in the video. Or do we just whip out a rope and find a tree now, AS? ;) I do appreciate the judgement though; I was asking for it after all.

More seriously, another reason for independent oversight/ombudsmen roles. Who investigates the provincial police in QC?
 

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Right Beej.
Cops usually arrest people with huge rocks at protests then let them go no charges. I don't think so. Notice that ex cops have now spoken out and said these are cops. Liberals and NDPers have also. Notice the guy talking to the cops before they "arrest" them. This tactic is not new in Canada and failed miserably in this case.
I find this very disturbing and if you don't, you deserve the police state that this kind of action is a precursor to.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Right Beej.
Cops usually arrest people with huge rocks at protests then let them go no charges. I don't think so. Notice that ex cops have now spoken out and said these are cops. Liberals and NDPers have also. Notice the guy talking to the cops before they "arrest" them. This tactic is not new in Canada and failed miserably in this case.
I find this very disturbing and if you don't, you deserve the police state that this kind of action is a precursor to.
Calm down mm.

I have, from the start, called the whole thing suspicious. Very suspicious.

I just would like evidence. You may also note that in other crime threads, I'm not one to jump around demanding that we hang em' high. Investigate, evidence, prove etc. Those silly things that some (note: some) seem to value on occasions coincident with their underlying politics.

Ideally we would get an independent investigation but, often, police forces investigate each other. This is a problem I have with how we try to keep our law enforcement accountable. Bloggers have come up with some interesting ideas, including having the loud old guy present charges for assault (he was, technically, assualted) to get some names. Good stuff but, longer term, oversight and investigation needs to be improved.

As for your "value" judgement about what I must find very disturbing, lest I deserve a police state and your standard over-the-top prognostications of things to come, thanks. For as long as I can remember, people have been screaming about Canada becoming a "police state". It also occurred before I was born. It's turning into the, "Kids these days" silliness from social conseratives.

Anyone can choose their definitions but please try not to delude yourself into thinking that your take on how this is "very disturbing" somehow means that others must feel the same lest *insert mm's objective logical conclusions*.

Thanks for the input though. If you find a good source of analysis outside of the standard Canadian bloggers, post it. I've tapped out on useful sources.
 

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Undercover cops tried to incite violence in Montebello: union leader
CBC website said:
Retired police officer believes masked men were cops

Meanwhile, a retired Ottawa police officer who was formerly in charge of overseeing demonstrations for the force said he questions who the masked men really are, after viewing the video.

"Were they legitimate protesters? I don’t think so," said Doug Kirkland.

"Well, if they weren't police, I think they might well have been working in the best interests of police."

He added that if the situation was as it appeared, he did not approve of the tactic. "It's pretty close to baiting," he said.
You can take offense if you want to. I stand by my words. If people don't express outrage at this kind of action we will be sure to see more of it.
 

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Undercover cops tried to incite violence in Montebello: union leader


You can take offense if you want to. I stand by my words. If people don't express outrage at this kind of action we will be sure to see more of it.
What action?

You do not have enough evidence to make a conclusion. There is only circumstantial evidence. Looking into somebody's eyes is not evidence. Vibram soles on shoes is only circumstantial. If you look closely you will also notice that all three of them are also wearing shirts and pants. Coincidence? :rolleyes:

Let's see how the police respond. Maybe they have evidence to show who these three people were.

So far, there is nothing to be outraged at the police about.

I am outraged that a group of 20 professional protesters gets so much media coverage. Maybe if a 1000 people showed up it should be covered, but 20? Give me a break. Harper is right.... sad.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
You can take offense if you want to. I stand by my words. If people don't express outrage at this kind of action we will be sure to see more of it.
Seeing more of it is a little different than your logic of deserving some sort of inevitable police state in the same way that more of things like the CBC is different than deserving some sort of inevitable communist empire. Get it?

As for outrage it needs to be measured but forceful to draw in the public. Not yelling and screaming with the standard police state and/or nazi references etc. That gets ignored.

Pin these guys down by getting the police forces to answer a question that would force them to lie and keep pressuring for a public inquiry. This is a valuable occurence with footage and a peaceful protest; it should not be left to fall into the vague mound of "accusations" and such that always swirl around.

This event can offer a clean break from the hooligan "activists" that turn the public off because it offers the potential for clear proof (ie. not just boots and funny behaviour). From there, if an inquiry can be initiated and the outcome is clear, a follow-up can be done for previous protest events.

All this stuff takes time but letting it end up, if it is what it seems, as a reprimand and a couple sorries would be a missed opportunity. This could be the lever to get the public interested enough to get the ball rolling.

APEC, if I recall correctly, was about police violence (correction anyone?), not implementing a strategy to incite violence. That's a big fish to fry and, as I've said, a real solution is not a one-off outrage-fest but actually changing everyday police oversight and investigation.
 

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Or do we just whip out a rope and find a tree now, AS? ;)
More proof will be needed or course.

Beej, I do think there should be an investigation but by whom?

The reason is that they are just too many coincidences and odd behavioiur by the "protesters" in question.
Talk about a coincidence: Police and protesters wearing the same boots
Talk about a coincidence: Protesters arrested but no record of it
Talk about a coincidence: Protesters mask stays on during arrest. Even Lasagna could not do that...
Talk about a coincidence: Walking into a police line with no rough housing.

The whole episode is sleazy.

And of course the lying and back-peddling from the Police.
Officers never posed as protesters: Quebec police
The RCMP and Quebec police force have denied allegations their officers posed as protesters to try to provoke peaceful demonstrators at the recent Montebello summit.
Contrast with today
Quebec police admit they went undercover at Montebello protest
Quebec provincial police admitted Thursday that their officers disguised themselves as demonstrators during the protest at the North American leaders summit in Montebello, Que.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/08/23/police-montebello.html


Of course in this climate of where some would like to deny the obvious (I'm pointing you out VD), what do you expect...
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
More proof will be needed or course.

Beej, I do think there should be an investigation but by whom?
That's the problem. Maybe you know the QC system but, as an anecdote from Edmonton, one or more problems were investigated by "independent" officers from the Calgary police department. Does that sounds sensible?

As such, the priority is not really a given event, but getting the public -- who have many things on their mind, from health care to work to savings etc. -- to care.

The unfortunately standard approach seems to be to scream extremes and then act aghast at the "brainwashed" masses (ie. those that dare not share the 'passion'). Maybe their priorities are just different (not maybe: they are) than the screamers'. A clear and taped (plus follow-up evidence) event of this having nothing to do with the arse'ole hooligans is valuable if only for the possibilities.

In the end, the public is constantly being asked to consider 1000 different things "very very" important. Making it into the top 10 (in a specific sense, not just general concepts) would be a major achievement.
 

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I know the QC system (in details I would prefer not to) and while they are some good officers, it would take a lot of outside political pressure to get to the truth.

The protesters have already been tainted (seems the sad label is sticking). To me this is not about sharing the passion but of the tactics used in a democracy. I'd like to trust the authority to act in a neutral way not like some goons in a police state.
 
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