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Old May 10th, 2012, 04:41 PM   #5161
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Originally Posted by screature View Post
You know what is funny is that as much as the opposition clamors over the "anti-democratic" nature of the Bill it has received far more public attention and scrutiny than it ever would have as 5 separate little bills. Pretty ironic actually.
Gotta link for that?
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Old May 10th, 2012, 06:31 PM   #5162
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Gotta link for that?
Quote:
You know what is funny is that as much as the opposition clamors over the "anti-democratic" nature of the Bill it has received far more public attention and scrutiny than it ever would have as 5 separate little bills. Pretty ironic actually.
Sorry no... I should have stated:

Quote:
You know what is funny is that as much as the opposition clamors over the "anti-democratic" nature of the Bill IMO it has received far more public attention and scrutiny than it ever would have as 5 separate little bills. Pretty ironic actually.


Just look for media links for other Budget Implementation Bills vs. this one and I think the proof will be in the pudding.

As much as the Opposition wishes to claim that the Government is "hiding" the changes the Government is proposing in Bill C-38 it seems the Opposition and the media are absolutely fully aware of them... so where exactly is anything being hidden?

Do tell...

This is the nature of our democratic system and a free media... nothing remains hidden for long even when it is just purely baseless BS and even when there is no proof. In the court of public opinion it remains a "fact"... i.e. guilty by accusation.

The very fact that there is so much attention on Bill C-38 shows that the system is working and there is no repression of facts or hiding... It's just plainly obvious.

Last edited by screature; May 10th, 2012 at 06:46 PM.
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Old May 10th, 2012, 09:57 PM   #5163
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It makes it no less distasteful.

Harper has little respect for democratic structure....he is losing ground in public opinion.

If the left merges - it will be a very long time before the right gets another chance with their low support numbers.....perhaps that's why the frantic maker over.

A parody is what is emerging.



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Old May 11th, 2012, 12:43 AM   #5164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by screature View Post
Just look for media links for other Budget Implementation Bills vs. this one and I think the proof will be in the pudding.

As much as the Opposition wishes to claim that the Government is "hiding" the changes the Government is proposing in Bill C-38 it seems the Opposition and the media are absolutely fully aware of them... so where exactly is anything being hidden?

Do tell...

This is the nature of our democratic system and a free media... nothing remains hidden for long even when it is just purely baseless BS and even when there is no proof. In the court of public opinion it remains a "fact"... i.e. guilty by accusation.

The very fact that there is so much attention on Bill C-38 shows that the system is working and there is no repression of facts or hiding... It's just plainly obvious.
Nothing is being hidden, it's all on record, but it is harder for the public and the media to focus on dissimilar things that are packed together in an omnibus bill.

I agree with Stephen Harper on this issue (circa 1994). As he said back then, it is anti-democratic in that it forces MPs to accept or reject the package as a whole. They can't represent the wishes of their constituents if they might like some parts of the omnibus bill and dislike others.

And as the G&M article mentions, I believe this approach shows contempt for MPs, the Opposition and ultimately of Parliament. Why doesn't the Government simply put their whole legislative agenda into a single bill, plunk it in front of the House, invoke closure on debate and be done with the Parliamentary session inside a week, if they aren't going to allow MPs to do their jobs and debate the individual pros and cons of various proposed laws? There is a reason we have a Parliament and an Opposition as a check and balance against the Government. The current Harper government seems to want to dispense with this.
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Old May 11th, 2012, 09:32 AM   #5165
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Nothing is being hidden, it's all on record, but it is harder for the public and the media to focus on dissimilar things that are packed together in an omnibus bill.

I agree with Stephen Harper on this issue (circa 1994). As he said back then, it is anti-democratic in that it forces MPs to accept or reject the package as a whole. They can't represent the wishes of their constituents if they might like some parts of the omnibus bill and dislike others.

And as the G&M article mentions, I believe this approach shows contempt for MPs, the Opposition and ultimately of Parliament. Why doesn't the Government simply put their whole legislative agenda into a single bill, plunk it in front of the House, invoke closure on debate and be done with the Parliamentary session inside a week, if they aren't going to allow MPs to do their jobs and debate the individual pros and cons of various proposed laws? There is a reason we have a Parliament and an Opposition as a check and balance against the Government. The current Harper government seems to want to dispense with this.
There was no closure there was time allocation and if Peter Julian didn't pull his 11 hour long stunt there would have been plenty of time for other MPs to speak. The fact of the matter is that the real work on legislation is done in Committee not in debates in the House and C-38 will have plenty of time in Committee.

The Opposition is clearly doing their job as there has never been so much attention drawn to a Budget Implementation Bill which is usually very sleepy stuff indeed.
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Old May 11th, 2012, 12:22 PM   #5166
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There was no closure there was time allocation and if Peter Julian didn't pull his 11 hour long stunt there would have been plenty of time for other MPs to speak. The fact of the matter is that the real work on legislation is done in Committee not in debates in the House and C-38 will have plenty of time in Committee.

The Opposition is clearly doing their job as there has never been so much attention drawn to a Budget Implementation Bill which is usually very sleepy stuff indeed.
Correction for screature: I did not state that there was closure for C-38. Don't know what you're on about there.

Besides that, you dodged the question that Stephen Harper brought up in 1994, that using omnibus legislation is inherently undemocratic.

Does it make it better that you think it's "sleepy stuff"? No.

Does it make it better that you think Parliament does no "real work"? No. I think many would disagree with you on that point. Harper's tendency (and that of his supporters) in recent years has been to downplay the importance of Parliament, hence his sanctions by the Speaker and his willingness to prorogue. He likes to act as if he was elected President.

Yes, there is less grandstanding in committee, but the 1994 version of Harper and others have argued that using omnibus legislation hamstrings committee's abilities as well.
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Old May 11th, 2012, 12:37 PM   #5167
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Correction for screature: I did not state that there was closure for C-38. Don't know what you're on about there.

Besides that, you dodged the question that Stephen Harper brought up in 1994, that using omnibus legislation is inherently undemocratic.

Does it make it better that you think it's "sleepy stuff"? No.

Does it make it better that you think Parliament does no "real work"? No. I think many would disagree with you on that point. Harper's tendency (and that of his supporters) in recent years has been to downplay the importance of Parliament, hence his sanctions by the Speaker and his willingness to prorogue. He likes to act as if he was elected President.

Yes, there is less grandstanding in committee, but the 1994 version of Harper and others have argued that using omnibus legislation hamstrings committee's abilities as well.

Sorry I misread what you stated.

He was doing what is the job of any leader of the Opposition, to oppose.

Now as PM he is doing the job of any majority government, moving as much of their legislative agenda through the legislative process in as timely a manner as possible.

Trudeau did it, Mulroney did it, as did Chretien it is the way of majority governments.
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Old May 11th, 2012, 12:41 PM   #5168
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it's just more Harper talking points to distract from the real issue of their abuse of power.

"real work on legislation is done in Committee" - except that it's a Finance Commitee looking at the bill, and they are not qualified to judge the impact on the enviroment, immigration, fisheries, etc.... that this bill goes out of it's way to introduce.

"there has never been so much attention drawn to a Budget Implementation Bill" - because there has never been an Implementation Bill like THIS one.
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Old May 11th, 2012, 12:49 PM   #5169
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it's just more Harper talking points to distract from the real issue of their abuse of power.

"real work on legislation is done in Committee" - except that it's a Finance Commitee looking at the bill, and they are not qualified to judge the impact on the enviroment, immigration, fisheries, etc.... that this bill goes out of it's way to introduce.

"there has never been so much attention drawn to a Budget Implementation Bill" - because there has never been an Implementation Bill like THIS one.
Your not fully informed i-rui there is to be a special sub-committee to look at and have expert witnesses called by all parties to specifically address the environmental aspects of the Bill.

Not to mention the Finance Committee is free to call any witnesses it chooses as are individuals, i.e. citizens free to apply to the Clerk of the Committee to testify before the Committee.

So what is your point it is getting as much attention being an omnibus bill as it would have if it were broken up into smaller Bills?
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Old May 11th, 2012, 12:57 PM   #5170
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Your not fully informed i-rui there is to be a special sub-committee to look at and have expert witnesses called by all parties to specifically address the environmental aspects of the Bill.

Not to mention the Finance Committee is free to call any witnesses it chooses as are individuals, i.e. citizens free to apply to the Clerk of the Committee to testify before the Committee.
it's a sub-committe of the FINANCE committee. That is who will be looking at the bill, and it will be from that perspective that the members look at it.

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So what is your point it is getting as much attention being an omnibus bill as it would have if it were broken up into smaller Bills?
my point is that ramming through legislation in ominbus bills is a **** poor way to govern and slaps democracy in the face. That is enough to warrant the negative attention the bill is receiving.
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