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Old Mar 6th, 2012, 10:55 PM   #4001
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I have several concerns that I think Penn might share. Being one of the people who received the fraudulent spoofed robo-call in Saanich-Gulf Islands and one of the people who complained to Elections Canada and spoke with one of their investigators I am also concerned about what happened during this investigation and what it might say about the current investigations.

1) The investigator I spoke with told me flat out they knew the call was "spoofed" -- meaning the caller ID was faked to look like it was coming from an NDP organizer. He also told me they didn't have any way of tracing it. I was skeptical of that, it sounded to me like they weren't prepared to put in the work to do so. Given that they were able to trace the 2011 Guelph robocall both to the calling company and then to a particular phone tells me that they must have had some options that they didn't explore. But that's impossible to know because EC provided no report on their investigations or any details whatsoever.

2) The official conclusion is that they could not find anyone whose vote had been swayed and therefore they couldn't determine that the Canada Elections Act had been broken. This is ridiculous. There is no way they could ever prove that someone's vote had been swayed, we use a secret ballot. There would have to go with someone's word that this happened. I spoke with someone who when they received the call was surprised to hear that the NDP candidate was still in the race, although he had no plan on voting for him, but he was fooled. The thing is that the people who complained, like me, knew that as soon as they got the call it was attempted fraud and reported it to EC.

There was an attempt to commit fraud, and there was a fraudulent misrepresentation which specifically goes against the Canada Elections Act. Again, we don't have the benefit of EC's thinking on this because there was no detailed report on why they made the decision as they did. I have read legal opinion, which I can't find at the moment, that the attempt was enough to be considered a breach of the act.

3) In addition to not making any detailed report to Penn's campaign or any of the other complainants, such as myself, Elections Canada in their final report on the 2008 federal election did not make one single mention of this incident. It caused much concern at the time, was briefly at least a national news story, yet EC didn't consider this important enough to mention. Misrepresentation on the phone was not unheard of at the time, but EC didn't suggest any measures or action towards making sure they could curb this kind of activity in the next election. Sure enough, as many predicted in 2008, fraudulent phone calls became an even bigger factor in 2011.

4) As many are mentioning, EC's secrecy around what they do or have done does not inspire great confidence. And the fact that a Conservative-dominated committee blocked increased powers of investigation to EC is also a concern. The situation we are in now is one where we just have to have blind faith that EC is doing its job, is truly impartial, and has enough resources and skill to do that job properly.

I know many Conservatives and some of their supporters want this issue to disappear because their party is in the hot seat now, but if there are concerns that our electoral system can possibly be abused, it can affect all parties at some point. We should never stand for that and we and our leaders should be demanding that any concerns be fully addressed.
Well said. I can't for be sure the top brass had anything to do with this. But having watched the furious deflections, first blaming a 23 year old kid (as if...) then blaming the liberals for it (and/or the ndp) then it's simply a ndp smear campaign, the back-pedalling by demanding the liberals call records, only to play footsie as to whether or not they would release theirs (since OBVIOUSLY we know the conservatives are innocent...), this has become a incredible side show, a total comedy of errors.

Based on their performance, one can only really conclude they are worried what could be found, and are stalling and doing the usual find it first before the investigators do. That just doesn't look good.



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Old Mar 6th, 2012, 10:55 PM   #4002
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Originally Posted by groovetube View Post
^ and another.
Look groove, I am not going to get into anything with you in this thread again, but consider this:

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On topic and much more relevent, as this mess grows, it becomes harder to understand how Conservatives can justify this circus they continue to create.
Given that post above demonstrates a significant change from my normal responses and an expression of concern about Conservatives, screams to me that neither you or the guy from down east who thinks he's a big deal even read this thread.

Instead you both leave me with no conclusion that neither of you are here for any other reason than to dump on conservatives or anyone you think might be one.

It shows without question that you have no comprehension of what goes on here and you hang out here to toss crap at anyone who might disagree with either of your views.

Try reading and understanding before you toss a pail of crap on people. It is painfully obvious to me that is all both of you are here to do.

Once again I state that I am fast losing confidence in the Conservatives and find them harder to believe day by day.

Can you at least refrain from tossing yet another barb and acknowledging a shift on my part?

Didn't think so . . .

Cue barb in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...
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Old Mar 6th, 2012, 10:56 PM   #4003
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SInc a handful of us were tossing around some fun comments for a laugh. It happens.

Chill.

You are experiencing what I did with the liberals. It wasn't fun.



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Old Mar 6th, 2012, 10:58 PM   #4004
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Thought so, no comprehension on your part whatsever. Carry on. Pathetic as it is.
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Old Mar 6th, 2012, 11:04 PM   #4005
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what? There's no barbs sinc If you are questioning our government, then you are well ahead of the game. Just as when people sent the liberals packing.

What's increasingly sad, is the alternatives often aren't a whole lot better. I would like to think so. As anyone does.



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Old Mar 6th, 2012, 11:08 PM   #4006
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Originally Posted by groovetube View Post
Well said. I can't for be sure the top brass had anything to do with this. But having watched the furious deflections, first blaming a 23 year old kid (as if...) then blaming the liberals for it (and/or the ndp) then it's simply a ndp smear campaign, the back-pedalling by demanding the liberals call records, only to play footsie as to whether or not they would release theirs (since OBVIOUSLY we know the conservatives are innocent...), this has become a incredible side show, a total comedy of errors.

Based on their performance, one can only really conclude they are worried what could be found, and are stalling and doing the usual find it first before the investigators do. That just doesn't look good.
You know, however much I'd like to see the Cons fall on their face over this or anything else, I want to make it clear here that my greater concern is to find out what happened. I don't care if it is a Con, a Lib or whoever might be the bad actor or actors. I think this issue goes way beyond partisan or political junkie point-scoring games.

This is our electoral system and the integrity of our democracy we're talking about and I'd like to see less games from both the Government and Opposition on this. Every one of those sons of bitches work for us and none of them have any right to mess with our democracy.
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Old Mar 6th, 2012, 11:17 PM   #4007
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You know, however much I'd like to see the Cons fall on their face over this or anything else, I want to make it clear here that my greater concern is to find out what happened. I don't care if it is a Con, a Lib or whoever might be the bad actor or actors. I think this issue goes way beyond partisan or political junkie point-scoring games.

This is our electoral system and the integrity of our democracy we're talking about and I'd like to see less games from both the Government and Opposition on this. Every one of those sons of bitches work for us and none of them have any right to mess with our democracy.
Since Libs and Cons both dance to the same puppet master (see bills C-11 and C30) the "integrity" of the Canadian Parliamentary system remains as intended, a non-existent illusion.
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Old Mar 6th, 2012, 11:17 PM   #4008
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You know, however much I'd like to see the Cons fall on their face over this or anything else, I want to make it clear here that my greater concern is to find out what happened. I don't care if it is a Con, a Lib or whoever might be the bad actor or actors. I think this issue goes way beyond partisan or political junkie point-scoring games.

This is our electoral system and the integrity of our democracy we're talking about and I'd like to see less games from both the Government and Opposition on this. Every one of those sons of bitches work for us and none of them have any right to mess with our democracy.
I couldn't agree more GA. I have been a Conservative supporter for many years, but this one sits wrong with me. Even the Alberta Conservatives have lost my support. Deregulated power and gas, screwed up health care and loss of any real concern for the average Albertan is leading me further right. In Alberta, that translates to the Wildrose. I've about had enough here and maybe even in Ottawa, although in fairness, the jury is still out until we find out just what went on.
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Old Mar 6th, 2012, 11:20 PM   #4009
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I liked the idea of totally banning robocalls for elections. There needs to be strict rules in place for everyone, before this becomes a real problem.



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Old Mar 6th, 2012, 11:23 PM   #4010
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I liked the idea of totally banning robocalls for elections. There needs to be strict rules in place for everyone, before this becomes a real problem.
How could banning robocalls stop an illegal robocall on the eve of an election. How could it stop live callers from misleading voters?
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