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Old Jan 29th, 2011, 06:40 PM   #11
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I agree. Sometimes I've kinda (well not kinda) mocked the whole escapade, because really, no one is a scientist here. It seemed to me the most honest about not really knowing for sure was the couple who I thought was by far the most knowledgeable. They've since left.

It really does become a war of links, (my google enguard! comment) preceded by a commentary of what crooks, or blind, or whatever.

I think as humans here, there are an awful lot of really disturbing environmental things going on, and as I think a few pointed out rightly, GHG isn't our only biggest worry.

There is one thing that is definitely not something many can argue about, the use of fossil fuels, is not good for our environment. And certainly nor are many other things we are doing to our environment either.

I fear the worst is yet to come, and all these petty arguments, will seem awfully trivial, if any of us are lucky enough to survive all of this.

With that, I'm going to go eat a really, big greasy pizza.



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Old Jan 29th, 2011, 07:30 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CubaMark View Post
Y'know, I'd be far more interested in this (these) threads if we took the one thing we all agree on - the temperature is climbing and will have significant effects on climate and humans
Sorry, CM, I don't even agree to that.

The way I see it is that the temps -may- be climbing, or perhaps have even peaked. If they are & we are in the middle of another cycle then the temps could be heading down. Frankly, I'm hedging towards the going down for the next little while.

I certainly don't believe that global warming (or whatever the nom du jour is today) is responsible for floods, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, whatever.

I'm getting to the point where I believe man has had very little effect on the climate compared to other sources of input (the sun, volcanoes, cosmic rays, etc.). There is nothing (climatically speaking) that has happened in the lives of anyone today that has not happened dozens, hundreds, if not thousands of times in the past.

There has been higher CO2 levels before & life pulled through. There have been higher temperatures before & the planet didn't stop rotating. There have been higher & lower climatic everything before & yet, here we are, products of that process.

If the climate does go extreme, man will survive until he/she/it can & then be gone like so many species before.

FWIW, I've never, ever had to Google anything to back up the point of view I've presented. I have a browser folder with hundreds of links I've read over the course of the last couple of years (pro & con). It's pretty easy to reach in there & pull out a pertinent item.
______

The study that MacDoc just linked to I read two days ago. I have questions about forams being used as proxy data. That being said, the warming is certainly not unprecedented, as Macfury has pointed out.
______

Interestingly, Mr. Mayor, is that I will take the time to address or refute an article or posting, whereas others just sprinkle links like so much fertilizer without addressing other posts. I don't know if they are afraid to do so because they have no answers or if they are afraid that it will somehow legitimize the opposing argument by addressing it.

Perhaps they are so arrogant that such things are merely beneath them. Perhaps their own hypocrisy prevents them from making a cogent argument.

I don't know for sure, but I have my theories...
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Last, & certainly least, are the hecklers who come here for no other reason than to stir the pot.

Your efforts have certainly contributed to the closing of the previous two threads.

Thanks for nothing.
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Old Jan 29th, 2011, 07:47 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by FeXL View Post
Perhaps they are so arrogant that such things are merely beneath them. Perhaps their own hypocrisy prevents them from making a cogent argument.

I don't know for sure, but I have my theories...
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeXL View Post
Last, & certainly least, are the hecklers who come here for no other reason than to stir the pot.

Your efforts have certainly contributed to the closing of the previous two threads.

Thanks for nothing.
Clearly, its only the other people who are heckling, no, not you.

Let's move on.
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Old Jan 29th, 2011, 07:56 PM   #14
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<snort>
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Old Jan 29th, 2011, 08:44 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by CubaMark View Post
Y'know, I'd be far more interested in this (these) threads if we took the one thing we all agree on - the temperature is climbing and will have significant effects on climate and humans - and discussed responses, both practical (new home cooling technologies, solar energy uses, coastal protection) and policy (domestic & international).

Until then... GHG bickering is nothing more than something about which everyone to argue...
That isn't even a certainty, since the way in which data is collected an interpreted has changed severely over the past 20 years--not surprisingly within the time when temperatures are supposed to be so high. It might be getting very slightly warmer, or, if this year is any indication, we're in for a major cooling trend.
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Old Jan 30th, 2011, 01:36 PM   #16
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So, back to work...

Significant & fast cooling in the Mid-Atlantic Ocean

Quote:
A paper recently published in the Journal of Physical Oceanography finds that the Mid-Atlantic Ocean has cooled strongly since 1998 with more than half of the upper ocean warming over the 41 years from 1957-1998 erased by "strong" cooling over only 7 years from 1998-2004. As shown in the graph below, temperatures of the upper ocean within 3 different depth ranges were also found to be relatively stable since 2004 and each of the 3 depth ranges cooler than in 1981. This data is the opposite of climate model predictions of an accelerating steady rise in ocean heat content in relation to greenhouse gas levels.
Emphasis mine.

Lessee, where is it, I know it's here... Ah, got it!

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It won't reverse in anything like human time scales
Those pesky real world observations, always contradicting the truther's climate models...
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Old Jan 30th, 2011, 03:32 PM   #17
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it's kinda like that cartoon, the coyote and the dog. They're friends, but then when they punch their time cards...

no time to google the atlantic warming today. However later I'll read your link for interest.



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Old Jan 31st, 2011, 11:04 AM   #18
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I posted a link not too long ago in GHG 2 about galactic cosmic rays & the author's conclusion of their effect on climate.

Further to that is a post by Joanne Nova who compiles data from a couple of sources into a nice, clear explanation with excellent graphs.

Quote:
With the oceans covering 70% of the planet and the clouds covering 60% of the sky, water in its various forms, dominates our climate . Solar magnetic effects correlate with changes in clouds. This graph below shows the rise and fall over the last 1000 years. Both the Medieval Warm Period and the The Little Ice Age (upper graph) match the highs and lows of Galactic Cosmic rays (lower graph).
A brief explanation of the Planetary Physics involved:

Quote:
The right physics in my opinion: We have a strongly controlled climate. The solar constant and the physical properties of water keep us controlled.

* The heat transfer from surface into space uses two mechanisms in series: Convection in the lower atmosphere, IR radiation in the higher atmosphere.
* The warmer it becomes, going from pole to equator, the more important the convection part becomes. The height on which radiation flux becomes larger than convection flux, the convection top, rises.
* More convection means a higher tropopause, a lower cloud top temperature, a higher condensation efficiency, and in this way a drier upper troposphere.
* These two effects: a higher convection top and a drier upper troposphere, both increase Outgoing Longwave Radiation. This controls the temperature.
Conclusions:

Quote:
* Rising Outgoing Long-wave radiation with more than 3.7 W/m^2 per ºC SST cannot be the effect of rising CO2 or of the increase of other “greenhouse” gases. Rising OLR/SST with 8.6 W/m^2K means that the atmosphere has become more transparent to IR radiation in the past 60 years. The “greenhouse effect” has become less.
* Solar constant and the properties of water determine our climate
* Rising surface temperature is tightly controlled by increasing wet convection and concomitant upper tropospheric drying
* No observational evidence for influence of CO2 on past or present climate
* Strong observational correlation of solar magnetic activity with climate temperatures, presumably via cloud condensation nucleation and albedo
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Old Jan 31st, 2011, 12:45 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by CubaMark View Post
Y'know, I'd be far more interested in this (these) threads if we took the one thing we all agree on - the temperature is climbing and will have significant effects on climate and humans - and discussed responses, both practical (new home cooling technologies, solar energy uses, coastal protection) and policy (domestic & international).

Until then... GHG bickering is nothing more than something about which everyone to argue...

Uh sorry, but the NASA maps showed our part of the world with a slightly warmer than normal 2010, even though it was one of the coldest years on record. So until "scientists" stop fudging data to "prove their theories it would be hard to agree with that.

Especially from under 3 or 4 feet of snow.
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Old Jan 31st, 2011, 05:49 PM   #20
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Uh sorry, but the NASA maps showed our part of the world with a slightly warmer than normal 2010, even though it was one of the coldest years on record. So until "scientists" stop fudging data to "prove their theories it would be hard to agree with that.

Especially from under 3 or 4 feet of snow.
That's because NOAA eliminated most of its cold weather stations and most of the stations in Canada, and now attempts to guess at those areas through proxy data from southern stations. Not surprisingly, with the use of the proxy data, the average is always rounded upward. There are only as many stations operating now as there were at the turn of the LAST century.
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