Alternative Energy Sources? - Page 220 - ehMac.ca
Facebook
Twitter
YouTube
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Advertise


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Oct 25th, 2020, 12:18 PM   #2191
Honourable Citizen
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 17,685
Quote:
Originally Posted by CubaMark View Post
Some promising new battery technologies...

Why Vanadium Flow Batteries May Be The Future Of Utility-Scale Energy Storage
Vanadium is an element that can commonly exist in four different oxidation states. That just means that it can exist as an ion with different charges. For example, a vanadium ion that is missing three electrons would have a charge of V3+. If you add an electron to it, it converts to a V2+ ion. This transfer of electrons back and forth is what makes VFBs charge and discharge, as the vanadium ions in the battery swing from V2+ to V5+.

This differs from lithium-ion batteries in that every time lithium charges and discharges it is plating and deplating lithium metal on the cathode. Although this reaction is almost completely reversible, it will lead to degradation after a few thousand cycles and performance will decrease.

A VFB consists of two tanks of electrolyte dissolved in water and separated by a proton exchange membrane. Both electrolytes are vanadium-based. As the batteries are charged and discharged, vanadium ions are simply moved between oxidation states. According to Matt, this can be done tens of thousands of times over a time period measured in decades, with no degradation in the ability of the vanadium solutions to hold charge.

They estimate that every 10-20 years, the membrane that the ionic species crosses over will require a replacement. Again, this is unlike a lithium-ion battery where the entire battery would need to be replaced. They compared this to maintenance on a car. Matt indicated they have products in the field that have done more than 30 years of charging and discharging cycling.

Li-ion batteries do have an advantage in energy density, which is why VFBs are being targeted for stationary applications. However, compared to Li-ion batteries for grid scale storage, there is no fire risk with VFBs. Li-ion batteries need to be spaced farther apart or have sufficient fire suppression. Thus, VFBs can be packed tighter than lithium, so the footprint for grid-scale operation is comparable.

Regarding the cost, Invinity reports that they sell their batteries at a price in the same ballpark as Li-ion per MWh for the industrial market. The benefit of Invinity’s VFB comes in the levelized cost over time because of the decades of service a single device can deliver. VFBs can charge and discharge multiple full cycles daily for 20 years. Even though you may get thousands of cycles with a Li-ion battery, for a utility or commercial storage application where daily cycling is needed that may not be enough to give Li-ion the advantage.

Invinity’s core technology – the “cell stack” at the core of the VFB - is developed and manufactured in Vancouver, Canada.

(...)

I asked about the supply of vanadium. I learned that vanadium is the 13th most abundant metallic element in the earth’s crust. It is more abundant than copper. Further, the supply of vanadium in the battery can be recycled practically endlessly as the vanadium ions are moved between oxidation states, and not destroyed or degraded. In addition to the vanadium electrolyte being infinitely reusable, the balance of Invinity’s VFB is made almost entirely of common materials, like steel and household plastics, that can be easily recycled.

There are large vanadium reserves in the U.S. At present, 90% of the supply goes into steel manufacture. So, steel-producing regions like China are currently the largest producers of vanadium.

Ah so the choice is relatively clean oil and gas or massive Vanadium strip mines. Beyond that this further increases the cost of wind and solar as you have now added a storage element.


Still for taking a home off the grid, were the battery cost 1/4 of Li, it would be very attractive as it would remove the fire hazard and hopefully allow the batteries to be stored indoors.
__________________
I do not embed ad links. I do not endorse any products which may be linked to my posts. Do not click on those links.

I retain all rights to photo-images I have posted on ehMac. They were posted that other members of the community could enjoy them. They may not be used or sold in any other way without my written consent.

Social Distancing is an Oxymoron. The correct term is Social Demonization or Social Repression. Bandits, thieves and politically correct thugs hide behind masks.
eMacMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old Oct 25th, 2020, 03:27 PM   #2192
Honourable Citizen
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: S. Alberta
Posts: 23,273
Hello, Bigot.

Which is all well & fine until you factor in that renewables cost nine times the fossil fuels they displace.

Based on that observation, I don't care what newfangled battery technology they come up with. Unlike expensive renewables, fossil & nuclear fuels don't require expensive battery storage to keep the planet running.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CubaMark View Post
Some promising new battery technologies...
__________________
Just a meat eating, mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging, Harley riding deplorable troglodyte peoplekind, back from a better place...

“Have no respect whatsoever for authority; forget who said it and instead look what he starts with, where he ends up, and ask yourself, is it reasonable?” —Richard Feynman

“Charm and nothing but charm at last grows a little tiresome...It's a relief then to deal with a man who isn't quite so delightful but a little more sincere.” — W. Somerset Maugham
FeXL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 25th, 2020, 03:56 PM   #2193
Honourable Citizen
 
Macfury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Toronto Proper
Posts: 42,156
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeXL View Post
Hello, Bigot.

Which is all well & fine until you factor in that renewables cost nine times the fossil fuels they displace.

Based on that observation, I don't care what newfangled battery technology they come up with. Unlike expensive renewables, fossil & nuclear fuels don't require expensive battery storage to keep the planet running.
Solving that "storage problem" that has not existed for 150 years.
__________________
"My life is my own."

Mac Pro 5,1 3.2 GHZ Quad Core; MacBook Pro 1,1; iPhone 4
Macfury is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 25th, 2020, 04:14 PM   #2194
Honourable Citizen
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: S. Alberta
Posts: 23,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfury View Post
Solving that "storage problem" that has not existed for 150 years.
In fairness, Mom's family (as well as most rural Alberta residents of the time) relied on wind chargers & a lead acid battery system to provide basic electricity in the 20's, 30's & 40's, before rural electrification came along. We still have a set of 32 volt DC Christmas tree lights from the period tucked away somewhere.

Interestingly, many of the same issues with those early systems remain extant today, ie., no wind, no electricity, no matter how much battery backup...
__________________
Just a meat eating, mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging, Harley riding deplorable troglodyte peoplekind, back from a better place...

“Have no respect whatsoever for authority; forget who said it and instead look what he starts with, where he ends up, and ask yourself, is it reasonable?” —Richard Feynman

“Charm and nothing but charm at last grows a little tiresome...It's a relief then to deal with a man who isn't quite so delightful but a little more sincere.” — W. Somerset Maugham
FeXL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 25th, 2020, 04:39 PM   #2195
Honourable Citizen
 
CubaMark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 17,908
Send a message via AIM to CubaMark
Have you given any consideration to the possibility that you've all become cranky old men, stuck in the past, unable to embrace any change for the better? That your prejudices are blinding you to progress?
Renewable Energy Prices Hit Record Lows: How Can Utilities Benefit From Unstoppable Solar And Wind?
New U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) data predict solar and wind energy will dominate America’s new generation in 2020, making up 76% of new generation and adding 42 gigawatts (GW) of zero emission capacity, while coal and natural gas will dominate 2020 retirements with 85% of plant closures.

EIA reports U.S. electricity generation from renewable energy exceeded coal for the first time in April 2019, and forecasts coal generation will decline 13% in 2020. EIA also projects natural gas generation will only grow 1.3% in 2020 – the slowest rate since 2017 – while non-hydropower renewable energy generation will grow 15% in 2020 – the fastest rate in four years.

(...)

Lazard’s most recent Levelized Cost of Energy (LCOE) analysis shows U.S. renewable energy prices continued falling fast in 2019, with wind and solar hitting new lows, after renewables fell below the cost of coal in 2018. LCOE measures the total cost of building and operating a facility over its lifetime, and shows renewables beating fossil fuels by ever-larger margins – even without subsidies – with that trend forecast to continue for decades to come.

Over the last decade, wind energy prices have fallen 70% and solar photovoltaics have fallen 89% on average, according to Lazard's 2019 report. Utility-scale renewable energy prices are now significantly below those for coal and gas generation, and they're less than half the cost of nuclear. The latest numbers again confirm that building new clean energy generation is cheaper than running existing coal plants.

(Forbes)
__________________
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The Cuban Revolution as Socialist Human Development Brill Books (Amazon Paperback)
CubaMark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 25th, 2020, 05:23 PM   #2196
Honourable Citizen
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: S. Alberta
Posts: 23,273
Hello, Bigot.

Have you given any consideration to the fact that you are complete & utter Prog, changing merely for the sake of change, jumping on the bandwagon of the next fashionable trend without examining actual facts? That your ideology blinds you to empirical evidence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CubaMark View Post
Have you given any consideration to the possibility that you've all become cranky old men, stuck in the past, unable to embrace any change for the better? That your prejudices are blinding you to progress?
__________________
Just a meat eating, mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging, Harley riding deplorable troglodyte peoplekind, back from a better place...

“Have no respect whatsoever for authority; forget who said it and instead look what he starts with, where he ends up, and ask yourself, is it reasonable?” —Richard Feynman

“Charm and nothing but charm at last grows a little tiresome...It's a relief then to deal with a man who isn't quite so delightful but a little more sincere.” — W. Somerset Maugham
FeXL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 25th, 2020, 10:52 PM   #2197
Honourable Citizen
 
Macfury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Toronto Proper
Posts: 42,156
Quote:
Originally Posted by CubaMark View Post
[I]Have you given any consideration to the possibility that you've all become cranky old men, stuck in the past, unable to embrace any change for the better? That your prejudices are blinding you to progress?
Two simple questions. California embraces this "progress". Why do they pay crazy prices for energy if the cost of renewables is so competitive? Why are they always running out of power if renewables are so reliable?
__________________
"My life is my own."

Mac Pro 5,1 3.2 GHZ Quad Core; MacBook Pro 1,1; iPhone 4
Macfury is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 26th, 2020, 06:10 PM   #2198
Honourable Citizen
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 17,685
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfury View Post
Two simple questions. California embraces this "progress". Why do they pay crazy prices for energy if the cost of renewables is so competitive? Why are they always running out of power if renewables are so reliable?

There you go again. Asking someone to present an official politically correct narrative in such a way that it actually makes sense. Probability of that happening is of course almost zero.

Of course if it did make any sense whatsoever, it would not be politically correct and CM and Freddie would have no choice but to declare it to be a conspiracy theory.
__________________
I do not embed ad links. I do not endorse any products which may be linked to my posts. Do not click on those links.

I retain all rights to photo-images I have posted on ehMac. They were posted that other members of the community could enjoy them. They may not be used or sold in any other way without my written consent.

Social Distancing is an Oxymoron. The correct term is Social Demonization or Social Repression. Bandits, thieves and politically correct thugs hide behind masks.
eMacMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 28th, 2020, 11:35 PM   #2199
Honourable Citizen
 
CubaMark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 17,908
Send a message via AIM to CubaMark
Fusion Reactor Sets Record By Running for 20 Seconds
Most of the methods we currently use to produce power come with substantial drawbacks such as pollution or limited availability. Reliable fusion power could theoretically change all that. By harnessing the power of the sun, we could safely produce more power than ever before. The problem, however, is that fusion power generation doesn’t work yet.

A team from South Korea just made a major advancement — the Korea Superconducting Tokamak Advanced Research (KSTAR) device recently ran for 20 seconds. That might not sound impressive, but it doubles the previous record.



The sun and other stars produce energy through nuclear fusion — the process of sticking together two hydrogen atoms (and later heavier atoms) yields enormous energy, and the byproducts are entirely safe, unlike the leftovers from nuclear fission and combustion. However, fusion only takes place at extremely high temperatures and pressures. It’s not a self-sustaining chain reaction like fission.

KSTAR is one of the most advanced Tokamak-style reactors in the world. These devices use powerful magnetic fields to shape super-heated plasma into a torus (ring) shape. Currently, our ability to sustain artificial fusion reactions in this way is extremely limited. The best experimental reactors like KSTAR can only keep super-heated plasma active for a few seconds. The number of seconds is finally increasing, though.

__________________
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The Cuban Revolution as Socialist Human Development Brill Books (Amazon Paperback)
CubaMark is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Stern costs.....pay me now....pay me MORE later MacDoc Everything Else, eh! 786 Feb 16th, 2010 06:21 PM
Wind Turbines - Clean energy of the future! MasterBlaster Everything Else, eh! 50 Apr 21st, 2008 11:21 PM
Alternative Energy Vandave Everything Else, eh! 2 Sep 3rd, 2005 11:13 PM
Gas $ Check/Warning... Ohenri Everything Else, eh! 28 Dec 20th, 2004 07:37 PM
Where is MacNutt? MasterBlaster Everything Else, eh! 39 Aug 26th, 2004 08:41 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:07 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © 1999 - 2012, ehMac.ca All rights reserved. ehMac is not affiliated with Apple Inc. Mac, iPod, iTunes, iPhone, Apple TV are trademarks of Apple Inc. Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 RC 2

Tribe.ca: Urban living in Toronto!