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Old Jun 21st, 2004, 12:06 PM   #161
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And your source for these definitive statement would be?
?????????? Like, just about 80% of the public you would want to ask, I think.
P.S. I thought I should try to back up my claim with some support. I found this summed it up
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Old Jun 21st, 2004, 12:12 PM   #162
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You conveniently forget that Canada was close to bankruptcy, legacy of Mulroney and previous government excess. All along it was clear that in order to continue the programs a decade of cuts and sacrfices at all levels was mandatory to reduce the payments in interest and get GDP to debt ratios in order.
It was clear all along that until that happened there was not funds to repair the health and infrastructure.
Now Harper wants to go back to deficits just like the idiots down south and Harris did here in Ontario.
Without repairing the macro finances there would be no surplus to argue about
Confusing facts by looking through Liberal Red tinted glasses? How large was the deficit when Mulroney took power? How large was the deficit when he left? How much health care did Mulrony cut? Lets get some things perfectly straight, Mulrony LOWERED the deficit by 60%+, and did it without starving the provinces or squeezing health care. Mulroney reduced the size of government, and reduced the spending of the federal govenment.

Martin chose to reduce the deficit, but downloading the cost to the provinces, The very downloading you have been complaining the Ontario Tories did to the cities. Rather that attack the spending habits of his buddies, Martin deliberately chose to squeeze health care.

No question governments in power reward friends. ...
Have the Liberals done no wrong?? of course not, any group in power will have it;s share of greed and trough pigs.
Did Martin do something about it...yes.

That does not make HIS government irresponsible. Who called for the auditors report in the first place?? Who has put controllers in each major agency and fired a few heads of Public companies.
A little fact checking may be in order. Who was the minister responsible for money when the theft of taxpayers money was underway? Martin. Who knew what was going on in Quebec? Martin. Who did not raise a fuss? Martin.

And guess who played God with lives, playing politics rather than showing compassion when it came to giving $$ for the tainted blood scandle? Martin.

Sorry, but in my books Martin is an untrustworthy thief, who will likely take what he wants from Canada before retiring (after setting his family up no doubt)

Bringing programs to play as and when they can be afforded is important. Throwing out the goals and vision for a US style Harperworld, especially one going down the same disproven road of we can do everything AND cut that's true fiscal irreponsibility.
You are not going to get an arguement from me on this point. Harper is being a jackass, if he really thinks he can cut taxes, increase health care and military spending and not run a deficit. But I have the feeling that Harper knows this already, and is just prostituting himself to the right wing.

Martin has already shown the ability to achieve goals by erasing the deficit. Cleaner government started the day he took over when he appointed the auditor and later when he put controlers in key areas. If anything he needs prodding to get on with introducing the programs talked about for so long. He does act too cautiously at time. The 5 gas tax could be in place now for cities but I also know there is a complexity behind seemingly simple programs like that.

Bottom line tho the economy is terrific, Canada highly respected world wide for it's economy AND it's multilateral approach to world affairs.
Lets get one thing very straight. Martin did not erase the deficit. Martin inherited a system put in place by the previous PC Government that lead to deficit reductions. Then Martin sped up the process by screwing Canada over on healthcare. And refusing to keep the military suppied with the bare necessities. As for Martin "appointing auditors" etc, I'm having a hard time typing, I'm laughing so hard. Martin has done SFA when it comes to corruption, except to cover his own ass. I do not see anyone dangling by their testies from the nearest tree.

While we are at it, where is the push to wipe out child poverty that the Liberals have been promising for more than a decade?

If the economy is good, thank the previous PC govenment for the FTA and pushing NAFTA. Which reminds me, didn't the Liberal government campaign to crush the FTA?

As for your assertion that Canada is "widely respected", I would suggest to you that Canada is widely patronized, just like the cute little girl that sings at some family event.

Harper is a recycled radical - much further right than the current party would have voters believe. I don't think for a second Canadians want a current US style vision or government.

They're mad at the Libs for some good cause due to mistakes and those errors deserve attention and correction.
Losing sight of what IS right in the vision and the nation right now is just plain dangerous and short sighted.

Just the fact that NONE of the other three parties support Harper's vision of Canada as a society or in the world shows just how wrong headed the Con policies are.

Bring back the Progressive aspect......then maybe some sense is made for moderate alternatives.Not a few former PCs have jumped shipped for that very reason.

What truly IS morally bankrupt is a would be leader trying soothe an electorate into believing that the radical and unpopular policies he supported publicly before are not still in the agenda.
I don't think of Harper as a recycled anything. He is what he is, a guy that wants to grab power and fundamentally shift how politics works in this country. Personally, I don't share his vision.

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Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom.<br />It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave.<br /> -- William Pitt, 1763
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Old Jun 21st, 2004, 12:29 PM   #163
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He is what he is, a guy that wants to grab power and fundamentally shift how politics works in this country.
Yeah Hitler wanted to grab power as well and look what happened.
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Old Jun 21st, 2004, 04:06 PM   #164
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Here's a press release concerning Same Sex Marriage that says there are over 40 such Liberals in Ontario alone.
I looked there, and the Liberals and Conservatives opposed to same-sex marriage across the country are about even at around 70.
However, the number in favour of same-sex marriage:
  • Liberals: 100</font>
  • Conservatives: 1</font>
Add to that the fact that it's the Conservatives who want to have a vote, not the Liberals. Martin said he will not use the not-withstanding clause. And the Star editor quoted by MacDoc links this up nicely to the Bush-like trend, how the Conservatives would make this a precedent for removing other civil liberties.
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Old Jun 21st, 2004, 04:22 PM   #165
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I'll be glad when the rest of Canada has voted,
I'm sick of all the "They did this" and "He did that"
Makes me want to tell them all to... Go here.
(Caution this link may be offensive to some)

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Old Jun 21st, 2004, 05:46 PM   #166
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road to bankruptcy??
Strange this Con also seemed to think so

Preston Manning:* A Genuine Canadian

I was drawn to Canadian federal politics for a number of reasons. Our country was running enormous debts and we were on the road to bankruptcy. The politicians in Ottawa stopped listening to Western Canada and built enormous bureaucracies that catered to Quebec's outrageous blackmailing demands. However, my main reason for entering politics was Preston Manning's vision of Canadian democracy.

The government itself was concerned about the ratios and I recall reading many articles about the potential damage that continued deficit spending would inflict.

Things must be looked at in the proper perspective: Canada was not "bankrupt" in the early 1990s, but it was starting down a very slippery slope. Like many other countries, we were the ones that had got ourselves in trouble, and we were the ones that had to get ourselves out of it. We have been able to regain our discipline and capitalize on the enviable assets our union gives us.

We have been lacking in budgetary discipline in our recent history, and we have paid the price. We have had to undergo a difficult process of putting our financial house in order. While it is still too early to proclaim victory, the progress we have made so far is impressive.

In 1993-1994, the combined deficit of the federal and provincial governments, as calculated by the Department of Finance, was C$62 billion, or 8.6% of our gross domestic product (GDP). The OECD pegged our deficit as the 7th highest of 22 industrialized countries. That was the situation just a few years ago. In comparison, in 1998, Canada is the only country to have balanced its budget, again according to OECD projections. We can see that we have made progress.

Cutting the deficit was done by both orders of government. The federal government's deficit has been eliminated, while five provinces have succeeded in balancing their budget or achieving a surplus, three have only a small deficit, Ontario is proceeding with tax cuts, and Quebec is continuing on its path to a zero deficit. In 1993-1994, all ten provinces were in the red.

Canadians have had to make sacrifices to achieve that result. Our greatest achievement is that we have done so while maintaining the essential components of our social programs, containing inflation, kick-starting jobs and growth, and keeping the tax burden on the economy below the average for OECD countries. Winning the fight against the deficit has helped to lower interest rates, a key condition for growth.

Between 1994 and 1997, Canada's GDP grew by 2.9% a year on average, the strongest performance of the G-7 and putting us in 14th place of the 29 OECD countries. Average annual employment growth was 1.8%, the best performance (on a par with the United States) of the G-7 countries and in 9th place among OECD countries. The unemployment rate dropped from 11.4% in September 1993 to 8.4% in April 1998, the lowest it has been in Canada since August 1990. Some 543,000 jobs have been created since the beginning of 1997. On the whole, this is a remarkable performance for a country that, during the same period, eliminated one of the worst deficits in the industrialized countries. Now that our finances are in order, the prospects are very encouraging: the OECD forecasts that we will have the strongest economic growth of G-7 countries for 1998 and 1999.

This financial house cleaning has put Canada in the best position to face the major economic and social challenges of the new century. And those challenges are urgent, be it creating jobs, alleviating poverty, improving our health system, or becoming more competitive. The last Martin budget reflects that concern to step up our efforts in these sectors, but without going on a spending frenzy.
Zero Deficit" Our common objective

Canada has continued to have exceptionally strong growth and this document certainly makes clear that the cuts were at Provincial and Federal to get the situation turned around. There was no hiding the procedure.

If there is criticism that I would agree with it would be perhaps being too slow in returning health care to full funding.

Nursing the government through this difficult transition was no easy task especially with the likes of Chretien at the helm.

This is worth a read completely as it's a good economist's view of the state of finances and goals looking forward.
Looking back two governments later, rasing the spectre of secession and deficit together shuld scare the bejessus out of Canadians...just when the rewards of a unified effort by a unified country are coming available.

Political uncertainty is undeniably harmful for the economy. Throughout the world, the very prospect of secession entails a host of uncertainties, a political and social upheaval. No sociological law can protect us against this universal rule.
We've just seen Ontario's rating be affected by the steep deficit left by the PCs.

Do we deserve and need better, cleaner government...indeed.

Do we need or want to return to unworkable schemes and schisms from the past....NO!

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Old Jun 21st, 2004, 10:42 PM   #167
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Fink-Nottle wrote:

Poland had our respect in 1939, {...} but they would have rather had some tanks and guns and other unpleasant but necessary things.

Comparing Poland versus Hitler's Germany in 1939 to Canada (vs. which nebulous bogeyman?) today is really stretching it.

In fact, Poland spent enormous amounts of money on army and equipment well before the war. There were special taxes and citizen's subscription bonds for financig all sorts of ordnance.

Poland lost against the Germans not so much because of the admittedly obsolete and lacking equipment, but because of antiquated strategy, widespread corruption*, and disastrous foreign policy.

Poland was ready to fight another WW I, they were not prepared to fight WW II.

Which no one was then prepared to fight, other than the Germans.

The French had equipment much superior to that of Poles and they still lost. They were fighting WW I too.

One of the largest mistakes the Poles made was to trust their allies. Namely France and England. Sure thing, both countries declared war on the Germans and then sat (Sitzkrieg) and did diddly squat (OK, they tried to negotiate with the Reich. That approach was ever so succesful in the prior case of Austria & Czehoslovakia) while Hitler and Stalin took Poland apart.

The foreign policy error was to forge alliances with fairly remote countries who never had any real common goals with Poland, while at the same time alienating Poland's closest natural allies. Such as the Czechs.

So this was really not about spendinding money on the military. You can draft every citizen in the country and spend your entire budget on the army, it's not going to solve problems for anyone other than military contractors.

BTW, Polish and French partisans did more damage to the Germans than their respective regular armies ever managed.

The war against terrorism will never be won by bombers, "smart" bombs, tanks and aircraft carriers.

Using all this junk will just breed a new, more vicious generation of terrorism.

You think 9/11 was bad?

Canada is in an almost unique postion to get out of the militarism game. Do we need a strong Coast Guard? Yes. Do we need small, highly mobile crisis response forces? Yes.

Do we need tanks, non-defensive missiles, aircraft carriers, submarines** and any other large scale equipment? I don't think so.

If Canada insists on following the US into their custom made disasters, and mucking with other people's sovereignty, we will reap the fruit of these bad decision seeds. Same as Spain.


* - Poland was at the time not in the clutches of a Liberal Government, but in the hands of the kind of Conservatives who would welcome Mr. Harper as one of their own.

** -

Hmmm... 275 Canadian hospitals closed in a decade, but we can "afford" to buy some leaky subs for 3/4 of a billion dollars, and then spend additional millions fixing them.

Glug, glug...

"the sonar broke and another faulty piece of equipment had to be unjammed with a hockey stick. "

Let's spend several million dollars towards buying hockey sticks for the Canadian military, 'cuz you never know when they will need them.

[ June 21, 2004, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: iGeeK ]
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Old Jun 21st, 2004, 11:17 PM   #168
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What Poland didn't have and what Canada has is isolation from land attack other than from the US where the situation is indefensible.

Britain would have fallen right after France without the Channel and almost did anyways.

Late 19th European thinking. Bout right for Cons. Regressive fits just fine.

Here's a very interesting read about the dangers of being too closely associated with American Empire.......any empire for that matter.

Every country in Europe has at one time or another reached for the imperial purple. Portugal and Spain discovered and conquered vast jungles, swamps and pampas...and built empires of them. For Spain, the conquests were extremely profitable after they found huge quantities of gold and silver. But nothing ruins a nation faster than easy money. The money supply grew larger with every ship's return from the New World. People felt rich, but prices soon soared. Worse, the easy money from the new territories undermined honest industry. In the bubble economy of the early 16th century, Spain developed a trade deficit similar to that of the U.S. today. People took their money and bought goods from abroad. By the time the New World mines petered out, the Spanish were bankrupt. The Spanish government defaulted on its loans in 1557, 1575, 1607, 1627. and 1647. The damage was not only severe, it was long-lasting. The Iberian peninsula became the 'sick man of Europe' and remained on bed-rest until the 1980s.
The entire article is a very interesting and cautionary read

Let the US squander it's wealth and youth on weapons and hegemony.
Let even 1/2 of the 400 billion defence budget on their schools and poor.....then they'll get some respect.

Canada's long term strength will be in NOT being seduced to US adventurism and policies regarding both their place in the world and the treatment of their citizens.
Canada HAS done it differently, is the envy of the world and earns the admiration of many in the US who would see OUR policies and approach one they would have the US emulate.

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Old Jun 22nd, 2004, 04:29 AM   #169
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It's all smoke and mirrors. Pretty much every other country in NATO looks at Canada as some sort of US protectorate. A weak kneed batch of unrepentant socialists who have been sheilded from the true reality by the Americans....and who are desperately in need of a few "readjustments".

The same sort that have been necessary in countries like Sweden, Britain, The Netherlands, et al, that used to have a serious socialist bent to their internal politics. The same sort of readjustments that are ongoing in pretty much every other European country right now. Germany is going through the early stages of this painful transition as we speak. And the citizens don't like it much.

Nobody EVER does.

But Canada WILL go through this very same process too, just as all the rest have. We will adjust our social programs and tax rates to make the whole system truly sustainable in the long term. We will strengthen our military up to the very minimum to retain soverignty over this vast land.

We will begin this long and painful process not too long after the next election.

Watch and see.
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Old Jun 22nd, 2004, 06:45 AM   #170
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WHOA! Hold the coronation of a Conservative government!

Sat down at the computer to read the news while the java was brewing and nearly fell off my chair when I saw this:


It goes on to say the Grits have climbed back to 42 per cent support in Ontario.

So, what do you all think? Is it true or is it one of those rogue polls that occasionally pop up? That one out of 20 that needs to be tossed?
"Ooohhh! My brain hurts!"
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