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Old Jun 12th, 2019, 01:05 AM   #41
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Here is a University of Victoria study in health care costs per "drug."

Illegal drugs barely make a dent on overall healthcare costs.

https://www.uvic.ca/news/topics/2018...+media-release
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Old Jun 12th, 2019, 02:43 AM   #42
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You keep coming back to this "we could make people better" but like I said before, the safe injection sites are about stopping the spread of communicable diseases and overdoses, which result in lower costs to health care. Yes, tobacco and alcohol cost more, but again that's not a reason to not address this. Just say you don't want to pay for it and be done with it. Say you'd rather not help these people, and be done with it.

And again, all of our money. That's how taxes work. That's how socialism works.
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Old Jun 12th, 2019, 06:19 AM   #43
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You keep coming back to this "we could make people better" but like I said before, the safe injection sites are about stopping the spread of communicable diseases and overdoses, which result in lower costs to health care. Yes, tobacco and alcohol cost more, but again that's not a reason to not address this. Just say you don't want to pay for it and be done with it. Say you'd rather not help these people, and be done with it.
You don't seem to feel the need to show that the money is well invested. You first claim that the program saves more money than it costs. When that premise seems to go out the window, you retreat to a fallback position that as long as it prevents communicable diseases in a very small population it doesn't really matter how much money it saves.

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And again, all of our money. That's how taxes work. That's how socialism works.
Actually socialism doesn't work. As Margaret Thatcher famously and accurately predicted: "Socialism fails when you run out of other people's money." My money doesn't belong to the government, greedy you, or an even larger collection of greedy people who want to spend my money so they feel better about something.
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Old Jun 12th, 2019, 12:16 PM   #44
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No, it still saves more money than it costs as long as you're not padding out the costs with other things we are already paying for anyway (and not counting things like, say, the time taken up by first responders/doctors dealing with them, and not just the $), or assert that it's not worth dealing with this problem because others cost more but also as long as it is helping stop overdoses and the spread of communicable diseases then it's money well invested.

And actually, socialism works every day in this country, and the times that it doesn't is usually because a program has been de-funded or de-prioritized because someone would rather let people die than spend the money to help them.

At the end of the day the Supreme Court ruled in 2011 that InSite saves lives with no negative impact on public safety. A major evaluation of the pilot project in 2009 found that the only significant change in crime in the neighbourhood was a major reduction in car break ins and thefts; that's why we have a second site now. But why so many officers assigned to the neighbourhood, you ask? Because there is other stuff going on down here which are naught to do with InSite. Again, I live in this neighbourhood and work in it. If you want to talk about how the city and province have failed the area, sure, there's a whole discussion to be had about gentrification without adequate planning and concentration of services and other things, but safe injection sites are not one of the failings.

So again, just say you don't want to pay for it. Or say you don't want to pay taxes at all. Again, my original point is that your assertion we shouldn't be paying for this makes you a callous person. The measure of a society is how we treat our most vulnerable citizens, and you're talking about cutting off support for a group of them.
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Old Jun 12th, 2019, 01:41 PM   #45
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Here's a question for you--and it's not a trick question. If the cost of the program exceeded the savings in health costs would you still support it?
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Old Jun 12th, 2019, 02:07 PM   #46
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Both of those are based on what easily qualifies as ancient history. Nothing more current?

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At the end of the day the Supreme Court ruled in 2011 that InSite saves lives with no negative impact on public safety. A major evaluation of the pilot project in 2009 found that the only significant change in crime in the neighbourhood was a major reduction in car break ins and thefts; that's why we have a second site now.
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Old Jun 12th, 2019, 05:33 PM   #47
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Yes.
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Old Jun 12th, 2019, 05:36 PM   #48
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"If it only saves one life", right?

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Yes.
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Old Jun 12th, 2019, 05:49 PM   #49
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"If it only saves one life", right?
This is what I am wondering if it's coming to. If one argues that the program makes sense because it saves more money than it costs, OK. But I can't abide that last-minute pivot to: "If it saves only one life" or "The program's heart is in the right place."
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Old Jun 13th, 2019, 07:28 AM   #50
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"If it only saves one life", right?
I was checking the literature and some critics of the program note that first-time drug users also go to the safe clinics to begin their addictions in a government-supported environment. So it can probably be said that the program also "costs one life."
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