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Old Jun 11th, 2019, 09:28 PM   #31
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SINC, if you got to me, it was only to remind me what a callous, empathy-lacking person you are. Good for you for quitting smoking though, I've been through that and it's tough. It's a pretty simplistic view that what works for you will work everyone else though.

FeXL, my view comes from living and working in the downtown east side of Vancouver for the last 7 years. I do find it adorable that you're asking me for hard numbers but can't even be bothered to google police officers salaries though. The point is that sure, maybe the numbers of people who are helped off drugs are few, but those few help avoid incurring massive costs to the health care system. There were something like 9000 supervised injections at inSite in January, that's 9000 potential infections/diseases/long term costs to the system avoided. It's also disingenuous to say the cost of the salary of those cops is something to be directly tied to the problem. We are going to pay those cops no matter what, and they don't spend their whole year on this one problem.

Macfury, I am sure you think you are funny, but you're really just a troll.

The point is that these sites help people, the community, and the city. The cost of helping people can be high, but that's not a good enough reason not to do it, especially when the benefits of helping them outweigh the drawbacks and costs as they do with safe injection sites. Addiction is a medical problem, not a moral failing, and it's certainly not one we should let people die over without at least trying to help.

So I stand by my original point, which s that you three are all callous people espousing callous views, and lack empathy for your fellow human beings. Which is, you know, sad.
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Old Jun 11th, 2019, 10:11 PM   #32
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At this point we are merely discussing the generalities of the issue, hence my "back of the napkin" observation. If it turns into a hard argument, I'll look for all the numbers I can find.

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I do find it adorable that you're asking me for hard numbers but can't even be bothered to google police officers salaries though.
Not "maybe". Definitely. And, yes, it does save some health care money but it also costs a tremendous amount, as well. Would we consider a <1% success rate for curing, say, breast cancer, acceptable? Heart attacks? It's not so much the cost of the program for me but the return on the investment. There has to be a more efficient, cost effective solution.

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The point is that sure, maybe the numbers of people who are helped off drugs are few, but those few help avoid incurring massive costs to the health care system. There were something like 9000 supervised injections at inSite in January, that's 9000 potential infections/diseases/long term costs to the system avoided.
The article noted that those 90 cops were hired specifically for that job, not moved from other areas.

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It's also disingenuous to say the cost of the salary of those cops is something to be directly tied to the problem. We are going to pay those cops no matter what, and they don't spend their whole year on this one problem.
Answered.

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Addiction is a medical problem, not a moral failing, and it's certainly not one we should let people die over without at least trying to help.
I noted above that I'm not interested in merely giving up. All I'm asking for is a more effective use of my tax $$$.

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So I stand by my original point, which s that you three are all callous people espousing callous views, and lack empathy for your fellow human beings. Which is, you know, sad.
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Old Jun 11th, 2019, 11:02 PM   #33
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Macfury, I am sure you think you are funny, but you're really just a troll.
I'm setting up parallel situations that expose the holes in your reasoning. If I set up safe eating sites that prevented people from eating unhealthy foods and saved the health care system money, is that a reasonable use of taxpayer dollars? Should we allow the government to demonize tobacco smokers for their addictions? These are all questions you should be able to answer.

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So I stand by my original point, which is that you three are all callous people espousing callous views, and lack empathy for your fellow human beings. Which is, you know, sad.
Your definition of empathy seems to involve other people paying for your personal feelings about the situation. Do you empathize only with the participation of somebody else's wallet?
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Old Jun 11th, 2019, 11:05 PM   #34
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Not "maybe". Definitely. And, yes, it does save some health care money but it also costs a tremendous amount, as well. Would we consider a <1% success rate for curing, say, breast cancer, acceptable? Heart attacks? It's not so much the cost of the program for me but the return on the investment. There has to be a more efficient, cost effective solution.
Does this group of addicts actually seek healthcare when they become ill? It's a question that needs to be addressed in a cost-benefit analysis.
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Old Jun 11th, 2019, 11:39 PM   #35
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Ahhh... relief lurks in one's email it seems...

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Certainly not what I expect as a "Mac Topic" from ehmac.ca eh??? Times have sure changed.


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Old Jun 12th, 2019, 12:02 AM   #36
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Not another conspicuous thread abandonment from you Patrick? And no, times have not changed. Look at the early days of EhMac for reference.

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Ahhh... relief lurks in one's email it seems...



Certainly not what I expect as a "Mac Topic" from ehmac.ca eh??? Times have sure changed.


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Old Jun 12th, 2019, 12:30 AM   #37
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And no, times have not changed. Look at the early days of EhMac for reference.
I recall having a similar conversation years ago with The Little Drummer Boy who claimed to have been an addict.
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Old Jun 12th, 2019, 12:33 AM   #38
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Does this group of addicts actually seek healthcare when they become ill? It's a question that needs to be addressed in a cost-benefit analysis.
Good question.
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Old Jun 12th, 2019, 12:49 AM   #39
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Except, you generally don't end up with dangerous communicable diseases by sharing knives and forks, and we already have smoking cessation programs. The situations you present are not parallel, you're trying to set up a gotcha that doesn't work. And yes, people who are ill generally seek health care (or have it sought for them when someone calls 911 because they are overdosing or worse).

And yes, it's called taxes. We all pay. It's not someone else paying, it's all of us as a society. Pay according to your means, receive according to your needs. That's how taxes work.

Also, yes, 90 additional officers assigned to the neighbourhood. Not hired, assigned. We're already paying for them. Through taxes. Again, that's what taxes are for.

Times have changed, there's no one here to moderate and reign in the BS anymore. Not that there was much of it in the past, but some is more than none.
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Old Jun 12th, 2019, 12:54 AM   #40
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Except, you generally don't end up with dangerous communicable diseases by sharing knives and forks.
Obesity costs more than drug addiction on a national scale. If people could be coached while they eat and given healthy government food at medically supervised eating centres, where they would be provided with access to weight reduction and exercise programs...

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And yes, it's called taxes. We all pay. It's not someone else paying, it's all of us as a society.
Every time you ask the government to spend, you are spending other people's money.

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Pay according to your means, receive according to your needs. That's how taxes work.
Actually, that's Communism.
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