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Old Jun 11th, 2019, 01:40 PM   #21
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Feel free to elaborate, rather than just sniping from the safety of the sidelines.

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Callous indeed. And shallow, with pretensions of substance.
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Old Jun 11th, 2019, 02:01 PM   #22
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Feel free to elaborate, rather than just sniping from the safety of the sidelines.
I would propose to stop prosecuting all illegal drug use, except for use by minors. That's hardly a policy that would harm drug addicts. I know we don't agree on all of this, but it's certainly an indication that those of us to the right of centre aren't simply crapping on addicts. Government policy should weigh all costs and benefits.
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Old Jun 11th, 2019, 03:42 PM   #23
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Neighbourhood crime is not a result of the safe injection sites, it is a result of much larger issues in Vancouver in the neighbourhoods where the safe injection sites are. If they were the cause by themselves these issues would have been apparent more than a decade ago. To blame the safe injection sites is to take the narrowest possible view. Also, despite the increase in neighbourhood crime, policing that area costs less than what it would cost dealing with all the health care issues caused by not having them, and you're discounting the direct contact it gives addicts with programs that can help get them off drugs.

This all seems to boil down to the view that the three of you seem to hold that drug addition is a moral / character failing and not a medical problem. These are people, people that need help, not leave them to die as SINC seems to think.
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Old Jun 11th, 2019, 03:50 PM   #24
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These are people, people that need help, not leave them to die as SINC seems to think.
Sometimes the only way to cure people is to shock them. I got to you, now if only druggies will make a decision to quit. If not they are dead.
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Old Jun 11th, 2019, 04:21 PM   #25
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The government happily taxes tobacco smokers to poverty on the grounds that their choices are moral failings. Do you support a sin tax on tobacco products?

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This all seems to boil down to the view that the three of you seem to hold that drug addition is a moral / character failing and not a medical problem. These are people, people that need help, not leave them to die as SINC seems to think.
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Old Jun 11th, 2019, 04:29 PM   #26
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Sometimes the only way to cure people is to shock them. I got to you, now if only druggies will make a decision to quit. If not they are dead.
Sorry, have to add my $0.02...
Sometimes it's just not that simple... Addiction is addiction. Whether it's Illegal Drugs, legal "drugs" (Cigarettes, alcohol), food, sex or work etc.. Addiction is an issue that needs to be dealt with.

My parents were both crazy heavy smokers in the 60's and 70's. Packs a day or more. My father used to have a cigarette lit and in his mouth before he even opened his eyes in the morning he has he said. He loved his pipe before bed and a cigar when out with the boys. My mom, only cigarettes.

My mother comes from a family of Alcoholics. Thankfully she is not. However, she being a smoker has tried time and time again to quit, successful for a while each time but always seems to fall back into it. I figure based on her family history she is predisposed to addiction.

My father doesn't come from that same genetic linage of addiction. The day I was born (late 70's), he put the pack down.. Cold turkey. He has never ever picked it back up. No cigarette, no cigars, no pipe, nothing. He supports my mother because he knows how hard it can be and has been but he has been able to kick it, while she just can't. He knows if he touches it again he will fall back into it. She knew that as well, but she just can't seem to ever fully kick it. Even after watching my Grandmother die of Lung Cancer.

A lot of "addicts" or addictive personalities will shift their addiction from one compulsion to another thinking themselves as cured. It's not. It's the addictive tendencies that need to be addressed, not necessarily the substance.

Sorry I know this was about the safe injection sites and I know safe injection sites aren't comparable to smoking or cigar lounges, but like I said, unfortunately sometimes I think addiction can be out of the persons control at a conscious or logical level.

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Old Jun 11th, 2019, 04:40 PM   #27
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Alright. What evidence is there to support your conjecture?

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Neighbourhood crime is not a result of the safe injection sites, it is a result of much larger issues in Vancouver in the neighbourhoods where the safe injection sites are.
A decade ago there were a few dozen addicts using the site daily, of the possible hundreds in the area. Today there are hundreds, of the thousands who inject daily.

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If they were the cause by themselves these issues would have been apparent more than a decade ago. To blame the safe injection sites is to take the narrowest possible view.
I'm not convinced. The articles note that 90 officers were dispatched to police the area. I don't know what a cop makes but it seems to me that $100k/year is a good back of the napkin starting point. That makes wages $9,000,000/year. Throw in support staff, gear, vehicles, management, retirement package, overtime, what have you. That number could easily double or treble. Then add in the cost of crime. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to find this issue costs taxpayers $50 million/year (or more) in Vancouver alone.

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Also, despite the increase in neighbourhood crime, policing that area costs less than what it would cost dealing with all the health care issues caused by not having them...
Fine. How many actually take advantage of the opportunity? Any hard numbers? Again, according to the article, 600 of the 15,000 users even use the site. That makes a paltry 4% and how many of them avail themselves of the opportunity to quit? A helluva lot less.

Now, am I saying just give up on them? Absolutely not! However, if saving lives is truly our goal here then with a conversion rate numbering in the tenths of 1%, safe injection sites are obviously not the most efficient use of limited $$$ nor the most effective way to reach addicts.

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...and you're discounting the direct contact it gives addicts with programs that can help get them off drugs.
I'd argue it's both.

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This all seems to boil down to the view that the three of you seem to hold that drug addition is a moral / character failing and not a medical problem.
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Old Jun 11th, 2019, 04:44 PM   #28
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Sorry, have to add my $0.02...
Sometimes it's just not that simple... Addiction is addiction. Whether it's Illegal Drugs, legal "drugs" (Cigarettes, alcohol), food, sex or biting your nails.. Addiction is an issue that needs to be dealt with.

My parents were both crazy heavy smokers in the 60's and 70's. Packs a day or more. My father used to have a cigarette lit and in his mouth before he even opened his eyes in the morning he has he said. He loved his pipe before bed and a cigar when out with the boys. My mom, only cigarettes.

My mother comes from a family of Alcoholics. Thankfully she is not. However, she being a smoker has tried time and time again to quit, successful for a while each time but always seems to fall back into it. I figure based on her family history she is predisposed to addiction.

My father doesn't come from that same genetic linage of addiction. The day I was born (late 70's), he put the pack down.. Cold turkey. He has never ever picked it back up. No cigarette, no cigars, no pipe, nothing. He supports my mother because he knows how hard it can be and has been but he has been able to kick it, while she just can't. He knows if he touches it again he will fall back into it. She knew that as well, but she just can't seem to ever fully kick it. Even after watching my Grandmother die of Lung Cancer.

A lot of "addicts" or addictive personalities will shift their addiction from one compulsion to another thinking themselves as cured. It's not. It's the addictive tendencies that need to be addressed, not necessarily the substance.

Sorry I know this was about the safe injection sites and I know safe injection sites aren't comparable to smoking or cigar lounges, but like I said, unfortunately sometimes I think addiction can be out of the persons control at a conscious or logical level.

BReligion
If food is an addiction, what would be your criteria for setting up "safe eating sites" where food consumption is supervised?
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Old Jun 11th, 2019, 06:17 PM   #29
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I know all about cigarette addiction. Started at age 14 in 1958. Smoked about 50 a day until 2000. That was the first heart attack. I quit cold turkey that day. August 23/2000. It was hard and withdrawal was hell but the will to live was my goal. I see that as similar to drug addiction. Quit or die my cardiologist told me. I chose quit. Just like people on street drugs must if they want to live. Taking drugs day after day at a so-called safe injection site is aiding and abetting addiction by government. It is simply fostering addiction and nothing more.
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Old Jun 11th, 2019, 09:25 PM   #30
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Quit or die my cardiologist told me. I chose quit.

Make that at least two of usm but he wasn't even a cardiologist, but the way he suggested sure hit the mark.

Was it hard, sure, and is there a choice? Sure. Continue doing drugs and you're going to die early. It's as simple as that. Why assist that fate???



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