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Old Dec 8th, 2018, 01:30 PM   #1
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Alberta, the country.

For decades of my life there has been an undercurrent among Alberta's population for separation. It's like the tide: Depending on who is in Ottawa at the time, the swell comes & goes.

Living through PET's rape of Alberta in the 80's (NEP) made me a lifetime member of the "Albertan before Canada" club and, quite frankly, I have no memory of being a Canadian first. Perhaps as a wide-eyed youth. I honestly can't recall.

I do, however, have memories of the wave of Western separation that washed over many conversations, spawning such dreams as the Western Canada Concept political party, among others.

The Reform Party's efforts to make the West more relevant, with their "The West Wants In" slogan, was the most successful of the grass roots movements. However, it fell far short of what Alberta truly needs.

As much of a prick as Cretien was, he didn't seem to pick the separation scab much. Harper made things a bit easier to take but failed to deal with what westerners in general & Alberta in particular would term critical.

Now we have Jr., the airhead. A twice dropped out grad student, a snowboard instructor, a substitute dama teacher (I'd still like to find out what happened there...), a trust fund baby born with a silver spoon in his mouth who has never worked a day in his life.

The swell of separation is higher than I ever recall, largely due to The Dope's complete distain for Alberta (he learned well from his father) and at least partly because of Red Rachel. It's no longer just a few people talking loudly. It's many men & women quietly voicing their concern for the arrogance of the Laurentian Elite.

I ran across this post today & there are a string of comments, including quotes from articles, that just struck a note today.

I'm tired of the central Canadian a$$holes pulling the puppet strings. I'm tired of our $12 billion transfer payments going to a province that refuses to develop its own resources & is content to receive gov't welfare. I'm tired of being told we can't build pipelines to move our petroleum product to world markets. I'm tired of leftist, Progressive group-think. I'm tired of having French on my cereal box. I'm tired of dysfunctional Kaybeck businesses receiving gov't welfare. I'm tired of being Canada's milch cow.

It's long overdue, my Alberta friends. It's time to grab the bull by the horns & get the hell out.

It's time to secede.
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Old Dec 8th, 2018, 01:46 PM   #2
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You know I can see your angst here, but let me outline the case as I did for a Quebecer friend of mine...
1. No currency...you can’t use Canadian dollars
2. No shipping access for your products...although if you joined with B.C. you would have a stronger case
3. No Trade agreements...NAFTA, USMCA, TPP, or EU...you would be hit with the General Tarrif of 35% or so
4. No Post Office
5. Limited health care,
6 Limited to no Canada Pension
7. Limited Fire Department, Police, Schooling
8. No passports...you have to create your own and sign visa and access agreements
9. Fractured civil government
10. No external financing for infrastructure.
11. No oil subsidies....you still get them
12 No to limited provincial trade agreements
13. No border patrols , customs and excise etc...
14. Landlocked.

Now as I say if you, B.C. and say SK got together maybe.
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Old Dec 8th, 2018, 01:46 PM   #3
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Some quotes from the comments noted above:

Quote:
Why stay? This is a serious question, and it deserves a serious answer — not vacuous platitudes and emotional rhetoric, but sober, solid, rational analysis addressing the economic, moral, cultural, and political advantages of staying. I do not believe a case for staying can be made. And whatever temporary dislocations would attend separation are negligible compared to what we risk by doing nothing, allowing ourselves to drift further into the morass of contemporary Canada.
Quote:
We should undertake a move toward independence with a whole-hearted intention of achieving it, not as simply a tactic whereby to get (temporarily) a “better deal” from Ottawa (i.e., get some of our money back, provided as a sop to assuage “western alienation”). What Albertans have to understand is that the present Canadian reality is profoundly prejudicial to the interests of our children and grandchildren — economically, culturally, morally, politically — and that there is no realistic prospect of it ever getting better in their lifetime. Quite the contrary: there is every likelihood that it will only get worse, as Canada goes the degenerating way of Old Europe: stagnant, corrupt, spiritless, impotent.
Quote:
Better still, use the $12 billion to reduce the taxes on Alberta’s citizens and businesses by that amount; let people spend their earnings as they please, and transform Alberta, already the most vibrant part of Canada, into the most attractive economic environment in all of North America. True, the population would double within 10 years, but Alberta is a big place, of almost unlimited potential. However, to realize that potential, we have to do one small thing: Declare our independence — withdraw from the Canadian federation, become an independent commonwealth with our own sovereign government, directly answerable to no one but the people of Alberta.
Quote:
An independent Alberta would be every bit as politically and economically viable as Norway, Finland, Denmark, New Zealand and several other advanced countries of comparable population (but of far less natural resources).
Quote:
Alberta could have had a Heritage fund of close to 1 Trillion dollars now but all the money is taxed away through various scams like Equalization and handed to Quebec and points east to buy votes for the ruling class in Ottawa.
Quote:
Alberta needs to separate. Countless eastern PMs have savaged Alberta and denied its citizens for far too long now. It’s up to Alberta to make the move for a sovereign and distinct nation serving its own interests and prosperity... Alberta dies a little more daily under Trudeau.
Quote:
It’s ironic that Alberta woild have better leverage with Ottawa by being outside of Canada. Without being hobbled by federal equalization, taxes, regulations and court rulings the ball and chain of asymmetrical confederation would be removed. Not just from energy but also agriculture.

No more egg and dairy marketing boards. No more made in Ottawa regulatory barriers. The opportunity to negotiate its own trade deals. Significantly lower energy prices, lower income/corporate taxes and a shorter, more transparent permitting process would spur investment and higher per capita income. Alberta’s was already the highest in Canada and one of the highest in the world at over $59,000, which was between Norway and Switzerland in 2016. The Canadian average was quite a few pegs down at about $42,000 (conference board of Canada). Alberta is also the highest per capita contributor to the federal treasury in Ottawa and gets the least per capita transfers from Ottawa. All that money currently going to Ottawa would stay in Alberta.

More money, more freedom, less abusive bullshit — what’s the incentive to stay in Canada? Learn from the errors of Brexit though. Make a cleaner , quicker break.
Quote:
Letting Alberta walk away would remove whatever ability Ottawa still had to pay its debts. The Canadian dollar would go to zero, wiping out the mortgage debt of all Ca[n]adians.
All emphasis mine.
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Old Dec 8th, 2018, 01:53 PM   #4
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FeXL, you can post all the rants you want, and I do see your point here, until you answer question number 1, which my Quebec friend couldn’t answer either, you are going nowhere.
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Old Dec 8th, 2018, 02:10 PM   #5
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1. No currency...you can’t use Canadian dollars.
Yes, you can use Canadian dollars or American dollars if you choose. However, you will have minimal effect on monetary policy until you develop your own currency. The EU countries have minimal control over monetary policy, but use the Euro.

2. No shipping access for your products...although if you joined with B.C. you would have a stronger case.
They don't have access now. Separation won't make it worse and would probably make it better regarding US access. However, they would still use roads, rail and all other forms of transportation.

3. No Trade agreements...NAFTA, USMCA, TPP, or EU...you would be hit with the General Tarrif of 35% or so.

So negotiate a trade agreement.

4. No Post Office.
Bonus! Post offices are a dying business, but you would still be able to deliver mail within your province. How is that impossible?

5. Limited health care,
Why? Equalization money now stays in Alberta. Better health care.

6 Limited to no Canada Pension.

The Pensions belong to individuals, not the province. Set up your own system.

7. Limited Fire Department, Police, Schooling.
What are you smoking RPS? These are local matters.

8. No passports...you have to create your own and sign visa and access agreements.
OK.

9. Fractured civil government.
Why?

10. No external financing for infrastructure.
No financing of external infrastructure by Alberta. It's a wash.

11. No oil subsidies....you still get them.
I'll bite. How much do they total?

12 No to limited provincial trade agreements

Canada still doesn't allow free trade across its own provincial borders.

13. No border patrols , customs and excise etc...
Create them.

14. Landlocked.
Because BC shippers would refuse to ship Alberta goods? Why?
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Old Dec 8th, 2018, 02:19 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rps View Post
You know I can see your angst here, but let me outline the case as I did for a Quebecer friend of mine...
1. No currency...you can’t use Canadian dollars
2. No shipping access for your products...although if you joined with B.C. you would have a stronger case
3. No Trade agreements...NAFTA, USMCA, TPP, or EU...you would be hit with the General Tarrif of 35% or so
4. No Post Office
5. Limited health care,
6 Limited to no Canada Pension
7. Limited Fire Department, Police, Schooling
8. No passports...you have to create your own and sign visa and access agreements
9. Fractured civil government
10. No external financing for infrastructure.
11. No oil subsidies....you still get them
12 No to limited provincial trade agreements
13. No border patrols , customs and excise etc...
14. Landlocked.

Now as I say if you, B.C. and say SK got together maybe.
I've prepared a few lists of my own for Kaybeck separatists.

As to yours:
1: Who cares? Don't want a seat on the BoC like PQ does, either. In a matter of a few short years, the Canuck buck will be worthless because, without Alberta's revenues rolling into Ottawa, they won't be able to pay their bills.
2: Shipping access would be negotiated PDQ once the RoC found out that anything that crossed our borders (air & land) would be subject to massive taxations.
3: Who cares? We have enough resources to be able to negotiate terms of our own.
4: So what? A private owned/operated postal service would not only run more efficiently, but cheaper, as well.
5: Why? We're already paying for a large portion of our healthcare ourselves. Imagine how much health care $12 billion/year buys.
6: Who cares? It's practically worthless anyways. Again, we could design our own.
7: Why? Save money & raise efficiency by privatizing them.
8: No worries. I'd be burning mine over incense anyways.
9: As opposed to the fractured federal gov't? What could possibly get worse?
10: Oh, you mean like for pipelines? (/sarc)
11: Yeah, those massive <snort> oil subsidies on fewer & fewer barrels of oil that we're actually allowed to ship. Once again, if we're not sending $12 billion/yr to Ottawa, they can keep their f'ing oil subsidies.
12: Who cares? We'll negotiate our own international ones.
13: Like any independent country, we'd create our own.
14: We're landlocked now, FFS!

Further:
1: Don't want the armed forces.
2: We'll pay out our share of the national debt in exchange for any/all pension monies contributed.
3: All First Immigrants who want to remain with the RoC are more than welcome to their land, with the acknowledgement that they will be surrounded by an international border.

That's a start.

Is it going to be easy? Not a chance. It's going to take good, ol' fashioned head down & ass up work. However, that's nothing that those of us who were born & raised here aren't used to already.

As far as BC & SK are concerned, I'm not interested in doing this for them. This is entirely selfish and for and on Alberta's terms alone. Period.

That said, if others want to join us, I'd be happy to sit down & talk with them.

Once again, no way in hell the lower mainland joins us voluntarily. Diametrically opposed. Frankly, I ain't interested in having them along for the ride anyways. They are part of the problem, not part of the solution. The last GD thing I want to do is invite to the party the same idjits who are already blocking access to tidewater.
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“Have no respect whatsoever for authority; forget who said it and instead look what he starts with, where he ends up, and ask yourself, is it reasonable?” —Richard Feynman

“Charm and nothing but charm at last grows a little tiresome...It's a relief then to deal with a man who isn't quite so delightful but a little more sincere.” — W. Somerset Maugham
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Old Dec 8th, 2018, 02:49 PM   #7
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Now, Rps, I hav a question for you, from my first quote:

Why stay?
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“Have no respect whatsoever for authority; forget who said it and instead look what he starts with, where he ends up, and ask yourself, is it reasonable?” —Richard Feynman

“Charm and nothing but charm at last grows a little tiresome...It's a relief then to deal with a man who isn't quite so delightful but a little more sincere.” — W. Somerset Maugham
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Old Dec 9th, 2018, 09:58 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeXL View Post
Now, Rps, I hav a question for you, from my first quote:

Why stay?
It’s called security in numbers and economy of scale. That said, as I have mentioned before, the West should start it’s own national party and run against the Libs or Con. The Reform Party worked but forgot their mandate.......
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Old Dec 9th, 2018, 10:14 AM   #9
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I see a huge obstacle being CPP and OAS. Far too many seniors would be out of house and home without these supplements to their retirement income. Quebec is in far better shape in this area having long since established their own version of CPP.

Another is the new nation would be easy pickins for the US of A and the lure of statehood. Having dealt with health care in that nation, that is a road I do not wish to travel. Also if you think Albertans feel cut off from Ottawa, that's nothing compared to what it would be like dealing with the District of Corruption.

I do agree that a solid independence movement is vital as without it the province will continue to be victimized by Ottawa.
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Old Dec 9th, 2018, 10:18 AM   #10
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I don't think Alberta's "numbers" are being given security. The rest of the population seems to be working actively against its interests.

I also don't see how "economy of scale" applies here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rps View Post
It’s called security in numbers and economy of scale. That said, as I have mentioned before, the West should start it’s own national party and run against the Libs or Con. The Reform Party worked but forgot their mandate.......
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