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Old Dec 9th, 2018, 12:09 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rps View Post
It’s called security in numbers and economy of scale.
Neither of those sound like concrete reasons to me. Feel free to elaborate.

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Originally Posted by Rps View Post
That said, as I have mentioned before, the West should start it’s own national party and run against the Libs or Con. The Reform Party worked but forgot their mandate.......
Tried. Failed. Ain't worth wasting time/resources doing it again.

And it won't work because we simply do not have the nationwide support we need. If we did, we wouldn't need to be heading down this road now.

As to the Reform Party, it did not work. If it had, again, we wouldn't be sitting here where we are today.

We have two options: Reach for the lube or reach for the pitchfork.

Frankly, I'm tired of the lube...
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Old Dec 9th, 2018, 12:30 PM   #12
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FeXL, the Reform didn’t fail.......they changed. The West, meaning B.C., Ab., Sk. And Mb have about 104 Federal seats. If a West Party got the the majority they would have considerable influence on the Canadian government...much like Quebec when it is in its separatist rants. The key is not to try and be a National Party, but be a Local Party running in a national election. Reforms mistake was trying to be a national party...
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Old Dec 9th, 2018, 02:46 PM   #13
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FeXL, the Reform didn’t fail.......they changed.
They failed because they changed. They abandoned their original mandate & forgot who & what put them there. Same with Alberta's Wildrose Party. Any way you measure that it's a complete & utter failure.

Period.

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The West, meaning B.C., Ab., Sk. And Mb have about 104 Federal seats. If a West Party got the the majority they would have considerable influence on the Canadian government...
In response to your observation about a potential 104 seats I was going to say you'd be lucky to get 60. Just checked Wiki, Reform got 52 seats in '93 and 60 in '97. And, in '97 they never took a seat east of Manitoba. That's a far cry from your 104...

That said, I don't care about the Canadian gov't. No matter what the shape, form, stripe, smell, colour, whatever, I've had it with the bastards. The only influence I want to leave with them is the dust settling on the road as Alberta leaves confederation.

I'm tired of negotiating for the f'ing table scraps while the central, eastern & coastal areas get fine wine & caviar, on my tax dollar, no less! I'm well past "negotiations" which, in western Canada, is politispeak for BOHICA. In addition, I'm sure as hell not interested in teaming up with the f'ing NDP to overthrow a minority gov't.

The only way you get what you want here in the west is with a majority and only if the leader of said party isn't some effete, wet noodle, milksop idiot.

And, and, even if I was interested in said negotiations, there's no way in hell you get all 104 seats voting the same way in the first place! Do you honestly believe that a voter from the east end of Burrard St. in Hongcouver has a scintilla of political common ground with Kevin the dirt rancher from Manyberries, AB? Or a Sherwood Park Prog with the Rama, SK cemetery caretaker? Or the curator from the fossil museum in Morden, MB with some stoner on Gabriola Island, BC?

HA!
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Old Dec 9th, 2018, 03:06 PM   #14
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A few more quotes & resources.

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Here’s some trivia : if Alberta and Saskatchewan separated and formed a new country, it would be bigger than the combined area of Germany, France and the UK. And bigger than Ontario. (Wiki)

The GDP per capita of Alberta alone and a combined AL-Sask is higher than every OECD country except Luxembourg and Norway.

A separate country would be big, wealthy and rich in natural resources (oil, natgas, uranuim, grain, oilseeds, livestock, potash, lumber, legumes, maybe even diamonds etc.) to export.
Bold mine.

The article in the following link addresses points made by a NatPo writer in an article written earlier this year on why Alberta shouldn't leave. I don't agree with everything he says but most of the article makes sense.

The responder seems to couch his argument for secession in terms of joining the US. For the record, I ain't interested in becoming the 51st state.

Alberta Separation Is A Great Idea

This accusation/response I found most interesting & is a position I find myself agreeing with almost entirely:

Quote:
He suggests Alberta would have to pay $71 billion in order to pick up our share of the national debt!

Alberta has paid more into Canada than it has gotten back in federal expenditures to the tune of almost $221.4 billion between 2007 to 2015. Canada can pay us the difference upon our exit and we can just forget about all the other money leading up to 2007. Fair?
Bold mine.

The almost part comes in when the Feds start dickering about nickels & dimes & we start talking real loud-like about the differential prior to 2007...

The next link is to a pdf file containing a report/template by the above writer on how to create a nation of Western Canada (which includes BC, AB, SK, MB). Again, I don't agree with everything but I found it interesting brain food:

A Better Way
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Last edited by FeXL; Dec 9th, 2018 at 05:22 PM. Reason: Schpelling.
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Old Dec 16th, 2018, 09:04 PM   #15
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...and is Alberta, the country, prepared to deal with the environmental disaster that the oil & gas industry has and is leaving behind?

The story of Alberta’s $100-billion well liability problem. How did we get here?
Landowners once promised a fair share for hosting oil and gas infrastructure on their properties say Alberta’s liability management system is broken. They're worried the regulator has long been propping up the industry by exaggerating profits and underestimating the costs of cleanup — often leaving landowners with a tangled mess of wells, rusty pipes and contaminated soil.

* * *

the government — and the Alberta Energy Regulator in particular — is not only struggling to deal with Alberta’s long-standing well issue, but that the organization is propping up a beleaguered industry without requiring the necessary assurances that wells will be cleaned up in the future.

Critics worry that not only are orphan wells already sitting neglected in farmers’ fields across the province, but that a whole new wave of inactive wells are poised to be thrust onto the Orphan Well Association — and that, increasingly, taxpayers may be forced to shoulder the bill.

It has been estimated that at the current rate of spending, it would take 177 years to clean up the province’s inactive, suspended, abandoned and orphan wells.
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Old Dec 16th, 2018, 09:09 PM   #16
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Assuming we take "The Narwhal" at its word, how do you see this affecting any such decision to separate?

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...and is Alberta, the country, prepared to deal with the environmental disaster that the oil & gas industry has and is leaving behind?

The story of Alberta’s $100-billion well liability problem. How did we get here?
Landowners once promised a fair share for hosting oil and gas infrastructure on their properties say Alberta’s liability management system is broken. They're worried the regulator has long been propping up the industry by exaggerating profits and underestimating the costs of cleanup — often leaving landowners with a tangled mess of wells, rusty pipes and contaminated soil.

* * *

the government — and the Alberta Energy Regulator in particular — is not only struggling to deal with Alberta’s long-standing well issue, but that the organization is propping up a beleaguered industry without requiring the necessary assurances that wells will be cleaned up in the future.

Critics worry that not only are orphan wells already sitting neglected in farmers’ fields across the province, but that a whole new wave of inactive wells are poised to be thrust onto the Orphan Well Association — and that, increasingly, taxpayers may be forced to shoulder the bill.

It has been estimated that at the current rate of spending, it would take 177 years to clean up the province’s inactive, suspended, abandoned and orphan wells.
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Old Dec 17th, 2018, 04:44 AM   #17
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Why leaving Canada makes sense for Alberta, and U.S. would likely welcome a new state

Quote:
'Right now, every man, woman and child in Alberta pay $6,000 more into the national budget than they get back. Alberta is the only province that is a net contributor'.
https://nationalpost.com/news/politi...Z43tnSw8w4pYOs
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Old Dec 17th, 2018, 10:23 AM   #18
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Assuming we take "The Narwhal" at its word, how do you see this affecting any such decision to separate?
Precisely.

If the "problem" actually exists, then we'll have it either with or without the RoC. If the latter, then the $12 billion/yr we send to Ottawa en route to Kaybeck would pay that down in a matter of years.

The math is left as an exercise for the Progs...
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Old Dec 17th, 2018, 10:31 AM   #19
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Why leaving Canada makes sense for Alberta, and U.S. would likely welcome a new state



https://nationalpost.com/news/politi...Z43tnSw8w4pYOs
Having experience with both US Medicare and the Canadian system, I can assure you the US system is orders of magnitude worse than Canada's. Also I gave up my US citizenship for very solid reasons and you could not pay me enough to re-instate it. Nor do I ever again want to see a 1040 or any other IRS form, in this or any other life.

Alberta remains landlocked and therefore vulnerable should it strike out on its own. To me the threat of being part of the USA is the biggest argument against independence.
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Old Dec 17th, 2018, 07:47 PM   #20
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I Want A New Country

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How long has this been going on for now? 40 years?
As concern grows among workers and politicians over Alberta’s embattled energy sector, a massive rally got underway in the city of Grande Prairie, Alta., to support the resource industry and to call for pipelines to be built.
Sure. Things are bound to turn around any day now.
More:

Quote:
We aren’t just a monumental cash cow for the government. We provide opportunities for families across the country,” Bernard Hancock, known as Bernard the Roughneck, told the crowd at a park in Grande Prairie, Alta., on Sunday.

“It puts chicken in the pot in New Glasgow, Nova Scotia. It puts a roast in the oven in Miramichi, New Brunswick. It puts tortiere on the fork in Granby, Quebec. And it puts tofu on the table in Toronto and Vancouver!”
Bold mine.

From the 2nd link:

‘We are not at war with Alberta’: Quebec stands firm against pipeline

Quote:
There is a growing conflict developing between Alberta and Quebec. Last week, Premier François Legault sparked outrage when he called Alberta oil “dirty energy.”

Alberta Premier Rachel Notley has accused Quebec of hypocrisy for accepting equalization payments from oil revenue.
More:

Quote:
“Yes, I heard it created quite a storm in Alberta,” said Justice Minister Sonia LeBel. “We are not at war with Alberta. We always have good relationships with Alberta (and) we intend to continue that way.
Bold mine.

Bull$h!t and up yours...
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