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Old Jul 26th, 2018, 01:12 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by CubaMark View Post
And here's the sad reality... just because one person cried wolf, now anyone who claims to have been a victim is suspect.

Are muslim-Canadians now where women were not very long ago with regard to sexual assault? If there were no witnesses, well, sorry ma'am, but you'll just have to suck it up and go about your day....

Are we going to start requiring muslims who've been victims of verbal abuse or violence to process the crime scene by themselves? Bring in the CCTV footage from nearby shops? Scrape the DNA from under their own fingernails?

Slippery slope...

All because folks prefer to think the worst, rather than give someone the benefit of the doubt.

But hey, they're muslims, after all - those folks just can't be trusted, right? They come from one of those cultures, you know, you can't just take what they say at face value. They're different.

It is a scary world when you want any allegation to just be accepted on word alone without proof.

If there is a violent crime the police will definitely investigate, that is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about a man who said some things to a woman that she did not like and found distasteful. If we were talking about an attack then that would be an entirely different thing. Crimes are crimes, we do not need to classify this is a muslim woman crime. We have laws already that protect people no matter who they are. The slippery slope is what is happening already, lives our being ruined simply by allegations. There was a story in the States of a woman who made all sorts of claims against her husband. He was going to lose his legal license (was a lawyer) and would have seen his practice closed because of these allegations. Thankfully he thought enough to record her making these threats and stating what she was going to do. Now if he had not recorded this should we have just taken her word for it? There would have been no CCTV, no DNA under the fingernails, just her word against his. THAT is scary when you whole life can be destroyed simply by an allegation without proof. Are we completely done with "innocent until proven guilty"?

Is someone calling you a name a crime? I would rather police resources be put to better things and not trying to monitor people so everyone is getting along. We get enough babysitting in our country already.
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Old Jul 26th, 2018, 01:26 PM   #112
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I would rather police resources be put to better things and not trying to monitor people so everyone is getting along. We get enough babysitting in our country already.
Exactly. The police would be misused as social engineers.
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Old Jul 26th, 2018, 03:45 PM   #113
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It is a scary world when you want any allegation to just be accepted on word alone without proof.
Not what I'm saying at all. What we should absolutely not do is take the tack that FeXL has expressed, which is to dismiss out of hand any complaint as fraudulent. Be cautious, seek confirmation and proof, investigate (as the Halifax police are now doing), but the first response is to support the alleged victim, not treat them as probable liars.

Erring on the side of believing the person allegedly accosted is the humane approach, rather than the immediate "You're probably a liar, and we'll treat you like **** until someone proves otherwise" is entirely reprehensible.

Quote:
We are talking about a man who said some things to a woman that she did not like and found distasteful.
Are you a visible minority? Are you a follower of a religious faith that is routinely ostracized and attacked based on acts you have never committed?

And revisiting the story as reported:
A guy was in my face and he looked like he was yelling, so I took my headphones out and said, ‘Excuse me?’ So he just turned around again and said, ‘F— you, f— all Muslims.’”

She said he also told her to go back to her home country — a cutting remark, she added,

* * *

The experience was shocking, alienating and terrifying, she said.

“I was really scared that he might be armed or have a weapon or something. So my instinct was just, run away, get the first bus, whatever bus it is, get on it and just find your way back home.”

She said she cried on the bus home, overwhelmed, trying to process what happened.
The alleged victim did not find the "things" that were "said" as "distasteful". From the description of the incident, the alleged perpetrator came at her out of the blue with forceful comments and a threatening manner. I think that goes beyond somebody just tossing a few unpleasant words in someone's direction. The alleged incident was frightening to the point where the alleged victim fled the scene to get away from the alleged attacker.

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Crimes are crimes, we do not need to classify this is a muslim woman crime. We have laws already that protect people no matter who they are.
The woman was allegedly attacked in public precisely because she is a muslim. This is the very definition of a hate crime. It's rather frustrating that folks are unable to process the degree of difference that this represents. Those of us who have lived our lives benefitting from being the majority are apparently unable to appreciate the viciousness with which that kind of speech falls upon the ears of victims.

"suck it up, buttercup" is a decidedly ugly characteristic of some social conservatives when commenting on prejudicial acts committed against persons of colour or a particular faith. Even worse is that so many of those conservatives wear it like a badge of honour.

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The slippery slope is what is happening already, lives our being ruined simply by allegations. There was a story in the States of a woman who made all sorts of claims against her husband.
.....
THAT is scary when you whole life can be destroyed simply by an allegation without proof. Are we completely done with "innocent until proven guilty"?
Thank-you for reinforcing my point. Did the alleged victim in the Halifax case wrongly accuse a person? No. Are you and others presuming her guilt rather than her innocence in reporting the alleged crime? Yes. If you're going to use that criteria, you have to apply it uniformly.
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Old Jul 28th, 2018, 09:03 PM   #114
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Since the bar of proof has apparently been raised, how about this one? Video and verbal admission... seems pretty cut-and-dried....

'I would kill your children': Police looking at confrontation as possible hate crime
A Stoney Creek man has been charged with threatening death after a heated confrontation in a Walmart parking lot that police are also reviewing as a possible hate crime.

The 47-year-old has also been charged with dangerous driving and failing to remain at the scene of an accident in connection with the Friday afternoon incident.

* * *

The argument started after the couple tried to back into a parking spot and apparently got in the other man's way,

* * *

At one point, the person holding the camera appears to get hit by the truck as the man quickly accelerates then hits the brakes.

"Oops," he can be heard saying, before shouting "Get out of the way."

* * *

"You want me to go to my own country? I'm a Canadian citizen."

The man in the truck responds by saying "Show me. Prove it. I don't believe you." Then, he crudely attempts to copy the other man's accent saying "You don't talk like a Canadian."

"I'm racist as f--k. I don't like you, I don't like her," he adds. "I would kill your children first."


(CBC)
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Old Jul 30th, 2018, 08:40 AM   #115
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Not what I'm saying at all. What we should absolutely not do is take the tack that FeXL has expressed, which is to dismiss out of hand any complaint as fraudulent. Be cautious, seek confirmation and proof, investigate (as the Halifax police are now doing), but the first response is to support the alleged victim, not treat them as probable liars.

Erring on the side of believing the person allegedly accosted is the humane approach, rather than the immediate "You're probably a liar, and we'll treat you like **** until someone proves otherwise" is entirely reprehensible.



Are you a visible minority? Are you a follower of a religious faith that is routinely ostracized and attacked based on acts you have never committed?

And revisiting the story as reported:
A guy was in my face and he looked like he was yelling, so I took my headphones out and said, ‘Excuse me?’ So he just turned around again and said, ‘F— you, f— all Muslims.’”

She said he also told her to go back to her home country — a cutting remark, she added,

* * *

The experience was shocking, alienating and terrifying, she said.

“I was really scared that he might be armed or have a weapon or something. So my instinct was just, run away, get the first bus, whatever bus it is, get on it and just find your way back home.”

She said she cried on the bus home, overwhelmed, trying to process what happened.
The alleged victim did not find the "things" that were "said" as "distasteful". From the description of the incident, the alleged perpetrator came at her out of the blue with forceful comments and a threatening manner. I think that goes beyond somebody just tossing a few unpleasant words in someone's direction. The alleged incident was frightening to the point where the alleged victim fled the scene to get away from the alleged attacker.



The woman was allegedly attacked in public precisely because she is a muslim. This is the very definition of a hate crime. It's rather frustrating that folks are unable to process the degree of difference that this represents. Those of us who have lived our lives benefitting from being the majority are apparently unable to appreciate the viciousness with which that kind of speech falls upon the ears of victims.

"suck it up, buttercup" is a decidedly ugly characteristic of some social conservatives when commenting on prejudicial acts committed against persons of colour or a particular faith. Even worse is that so many of those conservatives wear it like a badge of honour.



Thank-you for reinforcing my point. Did the alleged victim in the Halifax case wrongly accuse a person? No. Are you and others presuming her guilt rather than her innocence in reporting the alleged crime? Yes. If you're going to use that criteria, you have to apply it uniformly.

I could never understand I am a white male, but I will do my best.

No one is saying attack the accuser, not sure what support is needed but he mass public. The police are there and will investigate any crimes as they should. There are support services out there for people of all colour and creeds.

I do find the story a bit suspect just looking at it, though I am sure after the fact things are a bit hazy as anyone would be in a sort of shock with something happening out of the blue like that. Not saying it did not happen but does not sound like it happened exactly as she said

"A guy was in my face and he looked like he was yelling, so I took my headphones out and said, ‘Excuse me?’ So he just turned around again and said, ‘F— you, f— all Muslims.’”

I have noise canceling headphones and while they do a good job they would not mute a person in my face yelling at me. So he is in her face and only looks like he is yelling? Maybe it is just the way she worded it who knows.

We again have laws in our country protecting it's citizens. There is no need for a specific "hate" crime in the law books, all that does is muddy up the waters and create a separate class of people which goes towards separating the people of our fine country rather then unifying. One set of laws for you and another for me. I am white so these laws apply to me, she is Muslim so these laws apply to her. People are overly sensitive to words in this day and age. While not nice it is part of the cost of freedom. There are laws on freedom of speech already, adding more is dangerous. Should we start jailing white kids who use the "n" word? It is used regularly online and even out loud amongst themselves in person. I find it frustrating that people think we need MORE laws to protect a certain group of people. Again the laws of the land protect EVERYONE. You threaten someones life you go to the police, does not matter who you are, what you believe, when your sexual and gender identity is, you are protected. Nothing else is needed in the law book.

I am not accusing the woman of anything, I am asking for facts to be found before anything goes further accusing anyone of anything. Not sure how you can miss what is going on in the media, mere allegations are ruining lives without due process or evidence. Simply the allegation is enough.
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Old Jul 30th, 2018, 09:28 AM   #116
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Well said, wonderings.
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Old Jul 31st, 2018, 05:41 PM   #117
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Anonymous source, no witnesses. Why even bother posting something like that?
'Cause he's tryin' his damndest to prove that Canadians are all RAAAAAASIS'!!!
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Old Jul 31st, 2018, 05:59 PM   #118
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Where have I done that? Quote the precise words.

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Not what I'm saying at all. What we should absolutely not do is take the tack that FeXL has expressed, which is to dismiss out of hand any complaint as fraudulent. .
No. Matter of fact, HELL, NO!

The first response should be to get to the facts of the case. Assume nothing. As far as I can recall, you are still innocent until proven guilty in this country. What happens if you support the alleged victim & the victim turns out to be a liar, just like Clock Girl? Then you have another Charlie Foxtrot to clean up, along with alienating the real victim.

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...but the first response is to support the alleged victim, not treat them as probable liars.
It's also the wrong approach as you, yourself, so recently threw into sharp relief.

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Erring on the side of believing the person allegedly accosted is the humane approach,...
Yet when I told you of the racism I have personally experienced at the hands of local First Immigrants, do you recall your immediate response? I do.

It went along the lines of, "You probably brought it upon yourself". Guess Whitey don't get the same consideration as "persons of colour or a particular faith", does he...

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"suck it up, buttercup" is a decidedly ugly characteristic of some social conservatives when commenting on prejudicial acts committed against persons of colour or a particular faith. Even worse is that so many of those conservatives wear it like a badge of honour.
No $h!t, Sherlock...

I'm not presuming anything. I'm waiting for the facts of the matter to come forward. Just like I did with with Clock Girl & precisely what you didn't do with her.

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Are you and others presuming her guilt rather than her innocence in reporting the alleged crime?
Really?

Remember this statement, CM. 'Cause it's going to come back to haunt you in the very near future...

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If you're going to use that criteria, you have to apply it uniformly.
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Old Aug 3rd, 2018, 02:24 PM   #119
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This is what happens when they get classified as mentally ill. No jail, early release, little to no supervision, nothing but opportunity to do it again. Rinse, repeat.

Nice.

Mentally ill stabber in army recruiting centre attack to be allowed into community

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It appears the last mentally ill “lone wolf” who went on a 2016 rampage in Toronto will be free in no time.

In a shocking decision, Ayanle Hassan Ali — a man with schizophrenia found not criminally responsible for the attempted murder of three soldiers at the Canadian Forces recruiting centre in North York — has already been cleared to leave the secure unit of his Hamilton hospital this year on passes into the community, including forays that aren’t even directly supervised.
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Old Aug 13th, 2018, 08:01 AM   #120
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This is what happens when they get classified as mentally ill. No jail, early release, little to no supervision, nothing but opportunity to do it again.
I suppose your plan for the treatment of the mentally ill is somehow superior?

Oh, the anticipation....
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