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screature Sep 11th, 2017 01:39 PM

The Education Thread
 
In the "Deep Thoughts" thread the issue of education and who pays for what etc., etc. came up. it was interesting, a lot of hyperbole and not much fact/data. But it is indeed a very, very important subject. I thought it warranted its own thread to fully discuss the matter without disrupting the "Deep Thoughts" thread needlessly.

So for those who are game, let's have at 'er.

Dr.G. Sep 11th, 2017 02:43 PM

1 Attachment(s)
A fine idea for a thread, Steve. I have been a teacher, in one capacity or the next, at various age/grade levels, for 40 years. I still agree with Einstein. Paix, mon ami.

Freddie_Biff Sep 11th, 2017 04:43 PM

30 years for me as a teacher, Steve. I think it's a fine idea to start a new thread devoted to education, though I can also guess what will happen when the usual suspects arrive.


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Freddie_Biff Sep 11th, 2017 04:50 PM

Some etymology for the word "education," which appears to have a number of possible roots.

Quote:

Western educationists have discovered few Latin words through investigation. According to them, the English word 'Education' has been derived from Latin words "educare", "educere", "educatum", "E+duco", "educatus", "educatio".

1) 'Educate' - The term education has been derived from the Latin word 'educare'. The term 'educare' means 'to bring up', 'to rise', and 'to nourish'. The child has to bring up like a plant in the garden by the teacher. His potentialities should be developed with proper care and nourishment.

2) 'Educere' - The term education has been derived from the Latin word 'educere'. The term 'educere' means 'to lead out', 'to draw out' and 'to bring from'. Each and every child has the innate powers. The innate powers of the child should be properly cared, given scope to develop. It should be located and proper education to be developed.

3) 'Educatum' - The term education has been derived from the Latin word 'educatum'. The term 'educatum' means 'act of teaching' or 'training'. Education is something which is imposed from outside. It is external growth through activities and experience. The teacher, through education provides instructions and gives direction to mould his abilities.

4) 'E+duco' - The term education has been derived from the Latin word 'E+duco,. The term 'E' means 'out of' and 'duco' means 'to lead,.The child has inherited potentialities. It is inborn. It should be developed, but how and by whom? It is possible through education and by the active co-operation of the teacher.

5) 'Educatus' - The term education has been derived from the Latin word 'educatus'. The term 'educatus' means 'to bring up', 'rear', 'educate'.

6) 'Educatio' - The term education has been derived from the Latin word 'educatio'. The term 'educatio' means 'a breeding', 'a bringing up', 'a rearing'.
http://eduhutch.blogspot.ca/2014/11/...education.html


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Dr.G. Sep 11th, 2017 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddie_Biff (Post 2541249)
30 years for me as a teacher, Steve. I think it's a fine idea to start a new thread devoted to education, though I can also guess what will happen when the usual suspects arrive.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Wow. That is 70 years between us ............ and you are still going full-time and I am still teaching part-time. Let's see if we can reach 100 years. Paix, mon ami.

Dr.G. Sep 11th, 2017 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddie_Biff (Post 2541249)
30 years for me as a teacher, Steve. I think it's a fine idea to start a new thread devoted to education, though I can also guess what will happen when the usual suspects arrive.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Be positive, mon ami. There is no reason to drown this thread in negative postings. We shall see. Paix.

Freddie_Biff Sep 11th, 2017 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.G. (Post 2541297)
Be positive, mon ami. There is no reason to drown this thread in negative postings. We shall see. Paix.


Agreed. But remember the wise words of Dr. Macgraw: the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour. [emoji6]

FeXL Sep 11th, 2017 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.G. (Post 2541297)
Be positive, mon ami. There is no reason to drown this thread in negative postings. We shall see. Paix.

Too late, Dr.G. He's already started...

Macfury Sep 11th, 2017 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeXL (Post 2541337)
Too late, Dr.G. He's already started...

Man, I was going to leave this thread to itself until he started in.

Dr.G. Sep 11th, 2017 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddie_Biff (Post 2541321)
Agreed. But remember the wise words of Dr. Macgraw: the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour. [emoji6]

Sometimes this is true. Still, I like to give people the opportunity to make positive comments, even if they are critical comments, in all threads. It is when the comments get personal, as in "You taught 40 years????? What a dope to stick it out that long." So, we shall see who contributes to this thread and how their contributions advance the discussion about education. Paix, mon ami.

Rps Sep 11th, 2017 09:23 PM

Years and years ago when I was in college, we were taught that when you were at work you should never talk about politics, religion and sex......to this list one could easily add education. It is a topic everyone seems to have opinions on. But, regardless of your opinion, education has always come down to two fundamental issues......Implementing Ryerson's " hidden agenda" and someone today determines what someone else in the future will need to know.

Dr.G. Sep 11th, 2017 10:07 PM

Somewhat true, Rp. Still, effective teachers help students learn how to think and not what to think. Still, I agree that it is hard to buck the trend of centralized curricular. Paix, mon ami.

Macfury Sep 12th, 2017 12:21 AM

I would say that imbuing students with a deliberately narrow range of leftist ideology now passes for "teaching students to think."

eMacMan Sep 12th, 2017 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macfury (Post 2541505)
I would say that imbuing students with a deliberately narrow range of leftist ideology now passes for "teaching students to think."

I would make that any ideology. The student needs to develop the tools to chose his own vision. Anything else is essentially doing the homework for the student.

Macfury Sep 12th, 2017 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eMacMan (Post 2541513)
I would make that any ideology. The student needs to develop the tools to chose his own vision. Anything else is essentially doing the homework for the student.

However, today it's leftist.

Dr.G. Sep 12th, 2017 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macfury (Post 2541505)
I would say that imbuing students with a deliberately narrow range of leftist ideology now passes for "teaching students to think."

Who does that, Macfury? I know I never did and I taught social studies. You can't generalize like that and expect it to be accepted as the truth. Paix, mon ami.

Dr.G. Sep 12th, 2017 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eMacMan (Post 2541513)
I would make that any ideology. The student needs to develop the tools to chose his own vision. Anything else is essentially doing the homework for the student.

Very good point, Bob. This enables each student to have the means to learn on his or her own in the future, and to be able to become critical thinkers. Paix, mon ami.

Dr.G. Sep 12th, 2017 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macfury (Post 2541521)
However, today it's leftist.

You say tomato, I say potato ............. Just because you say something does not necessarily make it true. Paix, mon ami.


Macfury Sep 12th, 2017 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.G. (Post 2541569)
Who does that, Macfury? I know I never did and I taught social studies. You can't generalize like that and expect it to be accepted as the truth. Paix, mon ami.

I have watched it repeatedly in the Toronto area. Students are graded poorly if they interpret a novel outside of the approved ideology, for example. All history is taught through a leftist lens.

Rps Sep 12th, 2017 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macfury (Post 2541505)
I would say that imbuing students with a deliberately narrow range of leftist ideology now passes for "teaching students to think."

The issue that I see is not ideology, I mean we all live one whether we recognise it or not, but being able to think about issues. Unfortunately from lower grades to high school students are essentially told to " listen" and when they enter college or university are expected to think......and it is a brave teacher who challenges that model. We also need to focus on core competencies...these will never change and provide a framework from which students can develop critical thinking skills to be used their entire life.

wonderings Sep 12th, 2017 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macfury (Post 2541601)
I have watched it repeatedly in the Toronto area. Students are graded poorly if they interpret a novel outside of the approved ideology, for example. All history is taught through a leftist lens.

It certainly seems to be true from what I have watched happening on Universities (specifically in the States). Probably not true everywhere but it seems it has become the mainstream norm. Having a differing opinion then Antifa or any social justice group gets you labeled a bigot, fascist, nazi, racists, etc. Schools have shut down events, or made strong efforts to shut events down because they disagree with the speaker. School should be a place to explore ideas and have them challenged, instead it appears to have become a place you must conform to the approved ideals of the school. I would be happy to be dead wrong on this bleak view of schools today.

Macfury Sep 12th, 2017 08:18 AM

I already experienced this when I was in university decades ago. Professors announcing that they would fail anyone who mentioned a libertarian theme in their papers. Economics professors who deliberately went off curriculum to flog Marxist economic theory that was not part of the textbook and would not be part of the final exam--leaving students unable to complete parts of the group exam that were on curriculum. The latest examples I have seen are in high school, where students grimly state that they have to stay on political message or they will be penalized.

Freddie_Biff Sep 12th, 2017 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macfury (Post 2541601)
I have watched it repeatedly in the Toronto area. Students are graded poorly if they interpret a novel outside of the approved ideology, for example. All history is taught through a leftist lens.



Paranoid much? That is certainly not true at any school I've worked in. Teachers as a whole may lean to the left, but the curricula is fairly objective.

Macfury Sep 12th, 2017 10:14 AM

The curriculum may be objective, but many of the teachers are not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddie_Biff (Post 2541633)
Paranoid much? That is certainly not true at any school I've worked in. Teachers as a whole may lean to the left, but the curricula is fairly objective.


Dr.G. Sep 12th, 2017 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macfury (Post 2541601)
I have watched it repeatedly in the Toronto area. Students are graded poorly if they interpret a novel outside of the approved ideology, for example. All history is taught through a leftist lens.

Well, as most researchers would tell you is that anecdotal observations are important, but they should not be utilized to make broad generalizations.

"All history is taught through a leftist lens." Once again, this is your opinion, and just saying it does not make it so. Paix, mon ami.

Dr.G. Sep 12th, 2017 10:50 AM

"School should be a place to explore ideas and have them challenged, instead it appears to have become a place you must conform to the approved ideals of the school. I would be happy to be dead wrong on this bleak view of schools today." Very good point, Wonderings. Personally, I was shocked when some at Berkley, the university that helped to foster the "free speech movement" back in the 60s, were so closed that they prevented a speaker from speaking.

I too hope that you and I are both wrong re this "bleak view" that is trending in some schools. Hard to think that there were 18-21 year olds, the age of most university students today, who stormed the beaches at Normandy ........ and yet now they need "safe places" to calm down when they hear something disturbing. Paix, mon ami.

Dr.G. Sep 12th, 2017 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macfury (Post 2541625)
I already experienced this when I was in university decades ago. Professors announcing that they would fail anyone who mentioned a libertarian theme in their papers. Economics professors who deliberately went off curriculum to flog Marxist economic theory that was not part of the textbook and would not be part of the final exam--leaving students unable to complete parts of the group exam that were on curriculum. The latest examples I have seen are in high school, where students grimly state that they have to stay on political message or they will be penalized.

Wow. Now that is taking "academic freedom" to a dangerous extreme. Sadly, I too had profs who did not want to hear any "anti Vietnam war" discussions.

Still, neither you nor I should draw overall conclusions based on these personal experiences.

I recall some of my students shocked when I let them talk about the use of synthetic phonics. I said that even though I advocated different approaches, I felt that if a student could learn to read this way, then it was the proper approach to utilize. I actually liked it when students disagreed with me and my views as to literacy education, rather than just have them try to "spit back" what I was saying, whether they believed in it or not.

Dr.G. Sep 12th, 2017 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macfury (Post 2541657)
The curriculum may be objective, but many of the teachers are not.

True. Some teachers lean towards the left .......... others to the right ........ and some have no concern over one's leanings. This is why it is important to experience teachers with all points of views.

Macfury Sep 12th, 2017 11:04 AM

It makes it so at the three schools with which I have direct experience and at dozens of schools where others I know have direct experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.G. (Post 2541681)
Well, as most researchers would tell you is that anecdotal observations are important, but they should not be utilized to make broad generalizations.

"All history is taught through a leftist lens." Once again, this is your opinion, and just saying it does not make it so. Paix, mon ami.


Macfury Sep 12th, 2017 11:05 AM

There are no right-leaners at the high school with which I am most familiar. One centrist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.G. (Post 2541729)
True. Some teachers lean towards the left .......... others to the right ........ and some have no concern over one's leanings. This is why it is important to experience teachers with all points of views.


FeXL Sep 12th, 2017 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.G. (Post 2541681)
Well, as most researchers would tell you is that anecdotal observations are important, but they should not be utilized to make broad generalizations.

Dr. G., you can't be this naive.

Look around you. Read news sources other than those you are comfortable with. Throughout the US the left has almost completely taken over not only primary & secondary schools, but especially, post-secondary. And, not only instructors but students, as well.

Just a few, non-isolated examples currently in the media: Mizzou, Berkely, Evergreen.

Why do you think there are now "safe spaces" where the horror of free speech is not heard & rooms where progressive snowflakes can "heal" with kittens, puppies & hot chocolate, among other things?

And, just because you say these things are not happening doen't mean they aren't. To wit:

Question: What is the difference between Christian seminaries and American universities?

Quote:

The left has taken over universities as well as most high schools, and like almost everything the left has influenced — education, religion, the arts and the economies of most countries — this influence has been destructive.

...

Entire books have been written providing hundreds of examples of left-wing indoctrination having replaced education in American universities. FAU is just the latest example.
Left-wing thinking still prevails in schools

Quote:

Michael Gove is right. My time studying History at school and university was dominated by Left-wing thinking.

Consciously or subconsciously, the educational elite indoctrinates a generation of young people.

The dominance of the Left is deep-rooted and for all to see, especially when it comes to the teaching of history. I write as a 21-year-old graduate of History and Politics, just six months out of university.

Don't get me wrong: I had some superb teachers and lecturers, both throughout my time at school and while studying for my degree - individuals who enthused and inspired and knew their subjects inside out.

But the majority of them were rabidly Left-wing and the subjects they chose for their students matched their own misguided outlook on society.
Oh! What a tangled progressive web we weave . . .

Quote:

No one wishes to discuss candidly that universities are no longer free bastions of inquiry but are descending into would-be boot camps to train progressive shock troops.
Now, some will attack the sources above. Frankly, I could care less. How about discussing the argument?

Even something as simple & understandable as a tribute to victims of 9/11 is seen as an affront. WTF?

College Students Say Remembering 9/11 Is Offensive to Muslims

Quote:

The everything-is-offensive brand of campus activism has struck a new low: Students at the University of Minnesota killed a proposed moment of silence for 9/11 victims due to concerns—insulting, childish concerns—that Muslim students would be offended.

FeXL Sep 12th, 2017 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.G. (Post 2541729)
This is why it is important to experience teachers with all points of views.

So, in an area dominated by leftist thinking, exactly where does one find teachers "with all points of view"? Easier said than done. It's not like there a lot of choice.

FeXL Sep 12th, 2017 11:36 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Free?! :eek:

Free tuition for 185,000 post-secondary students in Ontario: minister

Quote:

Ontario's minister responsible for post-secondary education says 185,000 students have received free tuition this year under a new government program.
Advanced Education Minister Deb Matthews announced the figures Monday, which equal more than a third of all full-time college and university students in Ontario.

Macfury Sep 12th, 2017 11:45 AM

The notion of a degree is becoming pretty cheap coin these days. Offering free tuition may allow more students to partake, but it will cheapen the value of it even more. If everybody has a degree, then only what they learned will matter--this will become the new criterion for hiring.

FeXL Sep 12th, 2017 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macfury (Post 2541809)
If everybody has a degree, then only what they learned will matter--this will become the new criterion for hiring.

I'm not convinced. You heard about the massive security breach at Equifax a few days back? The Chief Security Officer at Equifax? Her education consisted of a BA & MFA in musical composition.

Know what this looks like to me? Just another occurrence of hiring the best minority, rather than someone who was actually qualified for the job.

There is nothing to convince me that this type of bogus hiring practice will cease any time in the near future.

Macfury Sep 12th, 2017 12:40 PM

It's hard to get past hiring quotas. I meant that if everybody has a degree, then there will be other criteria for hiring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeXL (Post 2541817)
I'm not convinced. You heard about the massive security breach at Equifax a few days back? The Chief Security Officer at Equifax? Her education consisted of a BA & MFA in musical composition.

Know what this looks like to me? Just another occurrence of hiring the best minority, rather than someone who was actually qualified for the job.

There is nothing to convince me that this type of bogus hiring practice will cease any time in the near future.


Dr.G. Sep 12th, 2017 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macfury (Post 2541745)
It makes it so at the three schools with which I have direct experience and at dozens of schools where others I know have direct experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macfury (Post 2541753)
There are no right-leaners at the high school with which I am most familiar. One centrist.

Well, you would have to have observed and interviewed each of these teachers for this statement to be valid.

Dr.G. Sep 12th, 2017 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macfury (Post 2541809)
The notion of a degree is becoming pretty cheap coin these days. Offering free tuition may allow more students to partake, but it will cheapen the value of it even more. If everybody has a degree, then only what they learned will matter--this will become the new criterion for hiring.

Actually, we agree here. I am in favor of free tuition for qualified students. However, it is coming to the point where just like a high school diploma was the necessary basic requirement for job advancement, then it became a BA/BS/B.Ed/BSW, etc., now a master's degree is the basic requirement. In some areas, not even a doctorate is enough. When I got my doctorate from the Univ. of Georgia in literacy education, it was one of the, if not THE top university in this area (according to the International Reading Assoc.), I still had to demonstrate that I could effectively teach certain courses and be the director for Memorial's Reading Clinic and Reading Institute. I did in my initial two year appointment .......... and stayed there for 38 1/2. Sadly, the person they hired when I retired in not, in my opinion, qualified to teach most of our literacy education courses.

So, I agree it is what one has learned and what one is able to actually do with this learning that should become the criteria for hiring, regardless of the field.

Dr.G. Sep 12th, 2017 01:21 PM

"Dr. G., you can't be this naive.

Look around you. Read news sources other than those you are comfortable with. Throughout the US the left has almost completely taken over not only primary & secondary schools, but especially, post-secondary. And, not only instructors but students, as well."

Nope.

I do, and I still contend that isolated incidents cannot be generalized beyond a reasonable horizon. I do NOT like the trend that seems to be taking shape in SOME US universities and schools, but this is NOT to be interpreted into my saying that ALL universities and schools are headed in this direction. I am still a centrist, who is willing to see all sides of a situation and belief, before making a decision as to where I stand on a certain situation.

Paix, mon ami.

FeXL Sep 12th, 2017 01:25 PM

There is no such things as "free" tuition. Somebody is always paying for it. If not corporate & private donors via scholarships, bursaries, etc., then the taxpayer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.G. (Post 2541865)
I am in favor of free tuition for qualified students.



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