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Athiests/Agnostice pay for Religion

3K views 41 replies 14 participants last post by  partsguy 
#1 ·
Well, as this post garnered no response, I think it behooves me to start this discussion.

The core of this 'problem' are the special tax breaks that recognized religions are granted by our Glorious Leaders.

And that short-fall in the Budget is made up by you and me, Brother.

Other not-for-profits pay taxes.

They pay property taxes. Churches do not.

Their employees pay income taxes, CCP, EI, etc, but what of Men and Women of the Cloth?

Thoughts?

Fight among yourselves if you wish. beejacon
 
#5 ·
Marc, John here.

Why limit that to questionable religions? In my mind all religions are questionable.

Let them stand or fall on their own merits, devoid of the Common Man's donation via tax laws.
 
#14 ·
Given that all religions are questionable, and the degree to which one religion can be said to be 'legitimate' and another 'a cult' is purely a subjective distinction, I don't see why any of them should be accorded special status.

Churches are corporate entities like any other; to the extent that they perform charitable activities or other community services, they can accumulate legitimate tax deductions like any other corporation, but I don't see any reason they should get special treatment.
I see your points, John and Bryan. Sadly, there are some churches that have, in fact, become "corporate entities".
 
#6 ·
Given that all religions are questionable, and the degree to which one religion can be said to be 'legitimate' and another 'a cult' is purely a subjective distinction, I don't see why any of them should be accorded special status.

Churches are corporate entities like any other; to the extent that they perform charitable activities or other community services, they can accumulate legitimate tax deductions like any other corporation, but I don't see any reason they should get special treatment.
 
#11 ·
This was my comment on the "other" thread before this thread took off...

I can tell from your attempt to open another thread on this that you have a strong opinion on this. I don't...

However, I will say this: Depending upon whether churches take the 503(c) exemption (And probably most of them do) for IRS purposes, they have to be pretty careful about mingling religious doctrine with political speech. And, having known at least one accountant who worked for a church, I know that they have to be very careful with what monies are exempt versus what monies are considered as earnings. For example, the church she keeps the books for also has a school associated with it. so, when some of the classrooms are used for church services, those rooms can be exempt. However, when they are used for teaching in the school (paid tuition) they are not exempt from taxes. It is a complex formula that she says makes the exemption very hard to work with for churches.

Which is why some of the churches opt out of it...

That's all I even claim to know about the tax exemption for churches.


And having read some of the comments here, I can only say that the so called "tax exemption" for churches in this country exists because of the establishment clause found in the 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. No law concerning the establishment of religion includes no taxing of religious institutions. The distorted array of exemptions and loopholes that exist in modern times should not reflect badly on the original intent to prevent a state-sponsored religion. Are the tax exemptions abused now? Probably. So are the corporate tax loopholes. Taxes are designed to be avoided if at all possible.
 
#12 ·
Welcome aboard. :clap:

The distorted array of exemptions and loopholes that exist in modern times should not reflect badly on the original intent to prevent a state-sponsored religion.
OK, I fully understand the Founding Father's acknowledgement of Religion in the forging of the United States.

But why does a State need to sponsor anything at this time? Church socialism??

If so, I'm in for the Church of Groovetube, with both feet.

Tim, can I sit on your right hand, near the salt? :D
 
#15 ·
Oh jeez, the elders have spoken!

But I agree with G, this is a topic worthy of a separate thread.

I have long thought that churches should lose their special status. They can write of the charitable work they do, like anyone else. And help put an end to these rich religious televangelist money pits.
 
#16 ·
It was my understanding in my naive youth that churches were tax exempt because the money they received from members/donors/givers was used for charitable purposes and to pay expenses of the church building. The church of my youth was built by members of the local farm community and served as both church and school for the farming community prior to modern school era. It was not a segregated school, which tells you that the community was not politically savvy at the time. I can remember people filling the place for community gatherings, suppers and general good times. The food bags handed out at Christmas time were wonderful and I helped my mother and other women pack them with delight, knowing hungry people were getting food.

Churches around where I live now are HUGE, with congregations in the hundreds if not thousands. There is still some charitable giving, I think, but instead of it being anonymous, there are lists for needy people to sign and investigative teams that determine what their needs are. And the expenses of these megachurches must be enormous! So, I have to agree that the purpose of the tax exemption is probably something that is without merit in the modern era.
 
#22 ·
And the expenses of these megachurches must be enormous!
And I have "money" in every one of them built in the last 50 years. Sad, eh?

Btw don't mind screeture, he fancies himself a self appointed mod at times, pay no mind.
Now you know for a fact that I'm not that green around the edges. :lmao:

So, these are the real players. Chealion, ehMax, Vexel, gmark2000 & speckledmind. Chealion and I share the same computer model. Almost time for an up-tick, eh. ;)

Oh, he feels sorry for us. Well how saintly of him. :baby:
I like Mr. T's signature line better. "Pity the fool.".

Great topic.
It's been a bug up my ass for years.

I feel it's akin to "taxation, without representation".
 
#19 ·
If so, I'm in for the Church of Groovetube, with both feet.

Tim, can I sit on your right hand, near the salt?...
Hey Tim when you start your new church, be open, accept all denominations, however if you suggest the $20 bill you may have greater success gathering "fold" for your cause. :D
 
#25 ·
The sad part about that experience, is that there so many spiritual people out there, of many different faiths, who are incredible people and do wonderful things for their communities. It;s organized theivery like what you described that darkens things for everyone. Greed. It seems to pop up everywhere doesn't it.
 
#26 ·
I don't know about the mega-churches, but the smaller congregations in smaller communities do provide a value of social assistance to those in need far beyond what they would be paying in taxes if the social assistance were to be provided as a government program. I'm thinking of the churches who provide shelters for the homeless, run foodbanks, build social housing, etc. In Canada the churches must fill out an application every year showing 'social benefit' in order to get their tax exemption. There is a very real possibility of losing your tax exemption status if you can't show social benefit.

There are other societies that provide 'benefit to society' which also receive property tax exemptions. Our local hospital auxiliary doesn't pay tax on the building they own that houses their thrift shop. The thrift shop has paid for many pieces of equipment at the hospital that the government wouldn't have funded. I was talking to one of volunteers at the thrift shop and she told me 'you can raise a lot of money fifty cents at a time when you don't have to pay the staff'.

Don't overlook the value of volunteer labour. There is no way the government could afford to replace volunteer labour with paid labour.

So don't look at the lost value of the property taxes lost to your local municipality. Look at the gain of all the volunteer hours, freely given, that you would lose to society as a whole. Agnostics aren't paying for churches. Religions that follow the precepts of their leaders (ie: Jesus preached 'love your neighbour as yourself' and when he was asked 'who is my neighbour?', told the story of the Samaritan who helped) are actually providing agnostics with free social services, and thereby lowering their tax burden.
 
#27 ·
.

So don't look at the lost value of the property taxes lost to your local municipality. Look at the gain of all the volunteer hours, freely given, that you would lose to society as a whole. Agnostics aren't paying for churches. Religions that follow the precepts of their leaders (ie: Jesus preached 'love your neighbour as yourself' and when he was asked 'who is my neighbour?', told the story of the Samaritan who helped) are actually providing agnostics with free social services, and thereby lowering their tax burden.
Oddly, I wasn't even thinking about the property taxes. I was thinking about the income tax exemptions for members pledging to the church. And the exemptions the church can claim for the donations themselves. So, I will be on the bandwagon with you on the property tax issue... that exemption should stand because even the big megachurches provide services to teh community that warrant the exemption. (for instance, with cold weather here they open their auditoriums to folks needing a warm place to go out of the cold and they do hand out blankets to those in need without requiring membership or affiliation.)

When I talked about my experience with the tithing nag, I was in NO WAY suggesting all churches are like that. It was just an anecdotal piece of evidence.

I am a Believer. But that doesn't mean I am not a good neighbor to those who do not believe. I think I can do both, without being judgemental or overly righteous.

Let the dart throwing begin!
 
#28 ·
I use to have a very good neighbour across the street that does work for a ministry helping people in third world countries. A great couple that has now moved to Indonesia to help the poor, 24 hrs a day and 7 days a week. Awesome guys that live on a meager salary yet show no hesitation to give to others anytime. I keep in contact with them by email monthly. They know I'm not religious and respect my views all the time.
I have no problem giving them money directly either, I know where it goes.
I know people who work for the Catholic churches and tell me stories about seeing the priests and higher up "dip" their hand into the donations. Also it makes me sick when guys like Benny Hinn who beyond doubt is fraudulent and will only lift a finger for his means. I'm not sure but I think he does get tax exemption too.
 
#29 ·
Good point. My father-in-law passed earlier this year and since he was raised in traditional Catholic church/school, he wanted to have a funeral mass said for him. I was not familiar with all of the Catholic rituals, but did a bit of research on the topic and came up with what I believe, turned out to be a real blessing for us all. I had a friend who is a pastor visit with him at the nursing center where he was terminal and say the "Our Father" with him to hear his last confession. When we took his body to the cathedral of his childhood, I spoke with the priest and told him that my pastor friend had heard Poppa's last confession and even though it wasn't how he would have done it, I believed it was sufficient for our Lord's Grace. The priest nodded and said he agreed and would give my father-in-law a full Catholic funeral mass. And then, at the actual mass, he asked ME to read a Bible passage. I was very touched.

And you know what? He didn't ask for a dime. So, it just goes to show that there are good folks doing good service to people in all walks of faith. And some who have no faith in a higher power, but just want to be good to one another. And if some people can do that without claiming a "faith" in anything, it is fine by me.
 
#30 ·
Yes there are some good people out there. Before we moved to Windsor we lived in Bowmanville. A few of the local churches got together and created a "gathering" which was a meal and conversation for those who have no one or where classed as undesirable.... there were many group homes in the town and the residents were not often brought into the social circle, if you get my drift. My wife an I attended each one ( held every two weeks ). I considered this a worthwhile project as it was an opportunity to touch and make whole the entire community if one was welling to participate ... all financed by the churches and donation from various companies. The sense of belonging is a critical need for most no matter what station of life you are in ..... the only religious moment in the entire evening was a blessing before the meal ..... small price to pay for a sense of belonging don't you think.
 
#32 ·
My mother was, until this year, the "chief organizer" of monthly fish fry gatherings (sponsored by her church) at the community building in the small town near my parents' farm. Any and all could come to eat and toss a few dollars or not into the basket near the door. They always profited from what they paid for the food and there were lots of boxes for those in need to take home. Except for the pre-meal blessing, it was the same. Churches can play an important role in community fellowship or they can destroy it with their snottiness and greed. And all churches in my experience have elements of both in their leadership; it is just a matter of the members' willingness to put up with the bad sort of leadership instead of forcing the good to shine.
 
#31 ·
Just make all charities, including the church, pay the same tax rate as every other organization. That way I don't have to pay for the "charitable" status of environmental wingnuts like David Suzuki and you don't have to pay for church activities--charitable or not.
 
#34 ·
And on that note, I will take my leave to go mail a few packages that found their way back to me here. Poor Aunt Pat (age 86) must think I'm a rotten Great Grand-Niece for not sending her a gift. Especially since her sisters' gift made it there a week ago. And the longer the gift that was supposed to go to my sister sits there, the more I think I should just keep it and claim it got lost in the mail. What was I saying about greed?
 
#35 ·
Oddly, I wasn't even thinking about the property taxes. I was thinking about the income tax exemptions for members pledging to the church. And the exemptions the church can claim for the donations themselves. So, I will be on the bandwagon with you on the property tax issue... that exemption should stand because even the big megachurches provide services to teh community that warrant the exemption. (for instance, with cold weather here they open their auditoriums to folks needing a warm place to go out of the cold and they do hand out blankets to those in need without requiring membership or affiliation.)

When I talked about my experience with the tithing nag, I was in NO WAY suggesting all churches are like that. It was just an anecdotal piece of evidence.

I am a Believer. But that doesn't mean I am not a good neighbor to those who do not believe. I think I can do both, without being judgemental or overly righteous.

Let the dart throwing begin!
I addressed the property tax because it was brought up in the OP.

And for iMouse's information, 'men and women of the cloth', at least in Canada, pay income taxes and CPP and all those other taxes. I've done the books for a church.

The tax exemption for people donating to charitable organizations is significantly lower (15% of the first $400, and 29% of anything over $400) than the exemptions granted for donating to your favourite political party. (75% for first $400, 50% for the next $350, and so on ...).

And charitable organizations can lose their status.

I've filled out the forms for tax exemptions, charitable status, etc. When you're ignorant of the reality, it's easy to claim that it's 'easy to start a religion'. It's not.

Making claims about the evils of something is easy. It's lazy. It's irritating. It feeds misconceptions.

Makes for good discussion on a web board, but doesn't make it true.
 
#39 ·
margarok, this thread is not about belief or non-belief. We have another thread for that.

This is about everyone paying for churches to be built/maintained, without regard to their wishes.

I understand the need for something like School Taxes, even though I have no children. That's OK, as I see it as in the public interest. But even there I can stipulate where those dollars go, albeit to only one of two choices, Public or Catholic. Again with the duality of Canada. ;)

Now if I could do the same thing for that small portion of tax 'coverage' I have to pay for churches nor paying property taxes, I might decide to select Judaism. Or whatever. But in the current model I would have to chose one, as no one escapes this burden.

</rant>
 
#40 ·
margarok, this thread is not about belief or non-belief. We have another thread for that.

This is about everyone paying for churches to be built/maintained, without regard to their wishes.

</rant>
Well, I thought it was about tax exemptions for churches and for donations to churches. Thus, the comments about the tithing lectures.

What I said was "Oddly, I wasn't even thinking about the property taxes. I was thinking about the income tax exemptions for members pledging to the church."

I thought it relevant to the topic since a significant reductions in income taxes can be realized through charitable donations to churches. So, pardon me...
 
#42 ·
Facts and rational discussion have no place in iMouse-universe. Only rants.

Please read what I wrote previously.

Here's a synopsis: Property tax exemptions are only given when the politicians can see that the net overall benefit is to society. Therefore you're actually SAVING money overall, not contributing to the building or maintenance of churches.

However, if you go down to the local church that is preparing sandwiches for the homeless, I'm sure they'll be happy to make sure they make more corned beef and fewer ham sandwiches at your request.

(I'm sorry I didn't type slower in my original response so you could read and comprehend my point more easily. I've made sure to type extra slowly this time.)
 
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