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Old Dec 16th, 2012, 12:42 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by kps View Post
I know the difference, just pointing out that the US is not alone in this kind of antisocial personality disorder leading to psychopathy. Guns or no guns. There are plenty of these kind of incidents from Tim Kretschmer in Germany, to Thomas Hamilton in Scottland, to incidents in Finland, to the mass murder in Norway by Breivik and other mass stabbings where the victims were not as lucky.
True, and I don't believe that gun controls stop violent behaviour from occurring.

But at the same time, I do think a reduction in the availability of guns or at least guns that are capable of firing a lot of bullets fairly quickly is a good idea as a harm reduction strategy.
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Old Dec 16th, 2012, 12:54 PM   #82
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True, and I don't believe that gun controls stop violent behaviour from occurring.
MacDoc conveniently ends his "study" of British gun deaths in 2009 to avoid the 2010 Cumbria massacre:

Cumbria shootings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

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But at the same time, I do think a reduction in the availability of guns or at least guns that are capable of firing a lot of bullets fairly quickly is a good idea as a harm reduction strategy.
I would also agree that some weapons require stricter controls.
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Old Dec 16th, 2012, 06:56 PM   #83
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Now Israeli's of all peoples have a legit need - lets see how it goes there....
Perhaps a bit more Israeli trivia is appropriate at this time.

Children lining up outside an Israeli elementary school...
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Old Dec 16th, 2012, 07:15 PM   #84
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"What America can learn from Switzerland is that the best way to reduce gun misuse is to promote responsible gun ownership."

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In the right to bear arms debate, pro-gun Americans point to Switzerland, where almost every adult male is legally required to possess a gun. One of the few nations with a higher per capita rate of gun ownership than the United States, Switzerland has virtually no gun crime.
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Swiss guns...are not even a trivial crime problem domestically. Despite all the guns, the murder rate is a small fraction of the American rate, and is less than the rate in Canada or England, which strictly control guns, or in Japan, which virtually prohibits them. The gun crime rate is so low that statistics are not even kept.
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Suicides have little to do with gun availability. Japan has no guns, while Switzerland is deluged with every gun in the book, and both nations have the same suicide rate.
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What have we learned from Switzerland?' Guns in themselves are not a cause of gun crime; if they were, everyone in Switzerland would long ago have been shot in a domestic quarrel.
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Cultural conditions, not gun laws, are the most important factors in a nation's crime rate. Young adults in Washington, D.C., are subject to strict gun control, but no social control, and they commit a staggering amount of armed crime. Young adults in Zurich are subject to minimal gun control, but strict social control, and they commit almost no crime.
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What America can learn from Switzerland is that the best way to reduce gun misuse is to promote responsible gun ownership.
All bold mine.

There's much more, just go read it.
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Old Dec 16th, 2012, 07:25 PM   #85
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Chicago Shootings Spike 49% In November Despite Strict Gun Laws

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Despite having some of the strictest gun laws in the country, Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel plans on restricting gun ownership further by banning individuals with a violent misdemeanor conviction from getting a gun permit for five years. The mayor also hopes to ban convicted felons from ever owning a gun.
<snort>

I wonder just how many of those 192 shooters in November actually had permits for their weapons? Any bets? I'll give long odds on "any".

Is anybody really so stupid as to believe that banning felons from gun ownership will, in any way, shape, or form, hinder them from obtaining another forearm?

Really?
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Old Dec 16th, 2012, 08:46 PM   #86
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Since it's pretty obvious that gun control in the USA is a non-starter, why not take this approach: let the gun nuts have their toys, but do something in an attempt to ameliorate the problem. You know, like actually providing decent mental health care. The curative, not preventative, approach to medicine in the USA is a big part of the problem here.... especially when, with deaths by shooting, there is no cure for death.
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Old Dec 16th, 2012, 08:51 PM   #87
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Since it's pretty obvious that gun control in the USA is a non-starter, why not take this approach: let the gun nuts have their toys, but do something in an attempt to ameliorate the problem. You know, like actually providing decent mental health care. The curative, not preventative, approach to medicine in the USA is a big part of the problem here.... especially when, with deaths by shooting, there is no cure for death.
I believe some of us are trying to get that across. I know I have.

You know laws regulating civilian gun ownership and gun control doesn't work where you currently reside, now does it. Especially with US government sponsored gun running.
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Old Dec 16th, 2012, 08:53 PM   #88
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Perhaps a bit more Israeli trivia is appropriate at this time.

Children lining up outside an Israeli elementary school...
I like the Israeli beaches better...funny I don't see any concern over the scary black rifle.
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Old Dec 16th, 2012, 09:03 PM   #89
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True, and I don't believe that gun controls stop violent behaviour from occurring.

But at the same time, I do think a reduction in the availability of guns or at least guns that are capable of firing a lot of bullets fairly quickly is a good idea as a harm reduction strategy.
Fair enough, I can accept that reasoning, but I don't believe it would stop a determined and dented individual. If crazed psychopath is determined enough he could set the school on fire or plant pipe bombs all over the place causing more horror than a 9mm handgun.

The stats thrown around are 12,000 gun deaths in the US, but the FBI's own stats also indicate 990,000 deaths prevented due to firearms. Huge difference. I guess in a firearms saturated country like the US, more guns... works.
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Last edited by kps; Jan 27th, 2013 at 11:22 PM.
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Old Dec 16th, 2012, 09:52 PM   #90
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Something that will no doubt get lost or suppressed is that the shooter was being given SSRI style meds.

These have rather unique side effects, one of which is amplifying the mental health problems they attempt to treat. A bonus is that stopping the meds can also do the same thing.
Came across this comprehensive article discussing the exact same issue. Someone's at least making the connections.

Psychiatric drugs and violence - federal investigation long overdue « CCHR International
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