: Einstein not smart enough to make top ten list of geniuses


MazterCBlazter
Nov 25th, 2009, 12:22 PM
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Dr.G.
Nov 25th, 2009, 12:32 PM
So much for his theories ..............

Dr.G.
Nov 25th, 2009, 12:32 PM
In The Mismeasure of Man, Harvard professor and paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould argued that intelligence tests were based on faulty assumptions and showed their history of being used as the basis for scientific racism. He wrote:

…the abstraction of intelligence as a single entity, its location within the brain, its quantification as one number for each individual, and the use of these numbers to rank people in a single series of worthiness, invariably to find that oppressed and disadvantaged groups—races, classes, or sexes—are innately inferior and deserve their status.(pp. 24–25)


So much for IQ tests. :lmao:

Snapple Quaffer
Nov 25th, 2009, 12:35 PM
IQ of only around 160!!???!!

Loser.

screature
Nov 25th, 2009, 12:42 PM
IQ is a notoriously bad measure of intelligence.

BigDL
Nov 25th, 2009, 12:49 PM
So much for his theories ..............It took some smarts also a lot of work.

As Mudbone* said "A lotta smart young men in theys graves and a lotta old fool walkin' around"

*AKA Richard Pryor

Dr.G.
Nov 25th, 2009, 12:54 PM
BigDL, I am not going to believe E=MC2 from a person with such a low IQ. From now on, I shall put my faith in federal politicians.

Rps
Nov 25th, 2009, 01:00 PM
I am a believer in Howard Gardiner's multiple intelligence theory. Geniuses are also temporal. Which begs the question is someone still a genius if their theory is proven to be wrong [ which seems to be the fate of theories to be constantly under attack as they, from a scientific point of view, are not considered a truth or you wouldn't keep trying to disprove them ] or is a genius a genius because they thought of the theory first? I'm sure many brilliant works have been disproved ..... are they still brilliant?

Adrian.
Nov 25th, 2009, 01:05 PM
Marc, I think you are on to something. I only see Europeans on that list.:rolleyes:

Dr.G.
Nov 25th, 2009, 01:13 PM
I am a believer in Howard Gardiner's multiple intelligence theory. Geniuses are also temporal. Which begs the question is someone still a genius if their theory is proven to be wrong [ which seems to be the fate of theories to be constantly under attack as they, from a scientific point of view, are not considered a truth or you wouldn't keep trying to disprove them ] or is a genius a genius because they thought of the theory first? I'm sure many brilliant works have been disproved ..... are they still brilliant?

The theory of multiple intelligences was proposed by Howard Gardner in 1983 to more accurately define the concept of intelligence.

In the heyday of the psychometric and behaviorist eras, it was generally believed that intelligence was a single entity that was inherited; and that human beings - initially a blank slate - could be trained to learn anything, provided that it was presented in an appropriate way. Nowadays an increasing number of researchers believe precisely the opposite; that there exists a multitude of intelligences, quite independent of each other; that each intelligence has its own strengths and constraints; that the mind is far from unencumbered at birth; and that it is unexpectedly difficult to teach things that go against early 'naive' theories of that challenge the natural lines of force within an intelligence and its matching domains. (Gardner 1993: xxiii)

Dr.G.
Nov 25th, 2009, 01:14 PM
Marc, I think you are on to something. I only see Europeans on that list.:rolleyes:

Bobby Fischer was born in Chicago.

HowEver
Nov 25th, 2009, 01:23 PM
Bobby Fischer was born in Chicago.

He renounced his citizenship. And despite his background, he became virulently anti-Semitic.

Good thing he was good at something.

Rps
Nov 25th, 2009, 01:25 PM
The theory of multiple intelligences was proposed by Howard Gardner in 1983 to more accurately define the concept of intelligence.


In my view, Gardner's thoughts match the concept of genius ... we judge genius based on what standard ... in other words, does our society skew the tests to one or two domains which "someone" deems as "the standard". I quite often do sessions on MI theory and I always ask " Who is the most intelligent person you can think of". Many say Bill Gates, I then proceed to show them how temporal this is. I have them imagine that their life depends on this person, however you and their choice are transported back to 500,000 B.C. I then ask them how long do they think they'd last .... maybe a better choice would be a Gretzky or a Payton ... context yes ..... but so is our selection of who is a genius......

Dr.G.
Nov 25th, 2009, 01:26 PM
He renounced his citizenship. And despite his background, he became virulently anti-Semitic.

Good thing he was good at something.

Yes, I read some of his anti-Semitic and anti-American rants and ravings. Sad to think that such an accomplished chess player could fall to such depths.

MACenstein'sMonster
Nov 25th, 2009, 01:33 PM
Einstein smart enough not to make top ten list of geniuses

Dr.G.
Nov 25th, 2009, 01:39 PM
In my view, Gardner's thoughts match the concept of genius ... we judge genius based on what standard ... in other words, does our society skew the tests to one or two domains which "someone" deems as "the standard". I quite often do sessions on MI theory and I always ask " Who is the most intelligent person you can think of". Many say Bill Gates, I then proceed to show them how temporal this is. I have them imagine that their life depends on this person, however you and their choice are transported back to 500,000 B.C. I then ask them how long do they think they'd last .... maybe a better choice would be a Gretzky or a Payton ... context yes ..... but so is our selection of who is a genius......

Rp, a great deal of my instruction to teachers-in-training deals with how they might integrate Gardner's MI theories into the reality of today's diverse classrooms.

Rps
Nov 25th, 2009, 01:45 PM
Rp, a great deal of my instruction to teachers-in-training deals with how they might integrate Gardner's MI theories into the reality of today's diverse classrooms.

A question for you on that ... how do you eliminate the bias which is usually built into curricula and still recognise MI theory , I know you are heavily involved with literacy, but do you instruct teachers of other disciplines as well?

RunTheWorldOnMac
Nov 25th, 2009, 01:46 PM
Not sure Bobby Fisher belongs in the list... sure he's good at chess but since when did chess become a measure of intelligence? I agree you need to be able to strategize, see things others do not, yes, good chess players are doing things we don't even know but to put them into a Top 10 of geniuses while you are missing Einstein, Hawking, Asimov, etc. this list becomes nullified.

And I am missing from this list!!! :rolleyes:

Rps
Nov 25th, 2009, 01:51 PM
Not sure Bobby Fisher belongs in the list... sure he's good at chess but since when did chess become a measure of intelligence? I agree you need to be able to strategize, see things others do not, yes, good chess players are doing things we don't even know but to put them into a Top 10 of geniuses while you are missing Einstein, Hawking, Asimov, etc. this list becomes nullified.

And I am missing from this list!!! :rolleyes:

I agree with you. Who really cares about a chess player. I mean why not put Stevie King up there for all his books .... just a valuable as a chess player to society.

By the way you think you are upset not being on the list ..... HELL!!!! I was number eleven!!!!

Dr.G.
Nov 25th, 2009, 01:58 PM
He was not on the list because of his chess abilities, but somehow they either tested him and extrapolated the others, or just made up the list.

Rps, you were tied for #11 with Hawking. Be fair and share your place in line.

BigDL
Nov 25th, 2009, 02:40 PM
Bobby Fischer was born in Chicago.That's next to Cicero and Cicero is in downtown Italy, or out by the mall isn't it? Yeah European anyway.

eMacMan
Nov 25th, 2009, 03:02 PM
Hitler's view of Jewish Bankers was entirely justified and remains so today.

Unfortunately it is far too easy to transfer that hatred of genuine scoundrels to anyone that shares their religion or any other characteristic. One would hope the world would outgrow this stupidity or at least limit their attacks to those that deserve to receive them. Sadly Bobby Fisher serves as an excellent example that even brilliant minds are susceptible to over generalizarion.

HowEver
Nov 25th, 2009, 03:26 PM
Just preserving this comment until the mods delete it. Goodbye.


Hitler's view of Jewish Bankers was entirely justified and remains so today.

Unfortunately it is far too easy to transfer that hatred of genuine scoundrels to anyone that shares their religion or any other characteristic. One would hope the world would outgrow this stupidity or at least limit their attacks to those that deserve to receive them. Sadly Bobby Fisher serves as an excellent example that even brilliant minds are susceptible to over generalizarion.

bsenka
Nov 25th, 2009, 04:25 PM
Just preserving this comment until the mods delete it. Goodbye.

I don't think his post means what you think it means.

Dr.G.
Nov 25th, 2009, 04:35 PM
Hitler's view of Jewish Bankers was entirely justified and remains so today.

Unfortunately it is far too easy to transfer that hatred of genuine scoundrels to anyone that shares their religion or any other characteristic. One would hope the world would outgrow this stupidity or at least limit their attacks to those that deserve to receive them. Sadly Bobby Fisher serves as an excellent example that even brilliant minds are susceptible to over generalizarion.

emacMan, and what is your interpretation of the views of Hitler re Jewish bankers, and why do you feel it was justified?

Keep in mind that Fischer was a Holocaust denier, and as one who lost all his relatives still in Europe to the Nazi death camps at Dachau, I find his views offensive.

I am adding something I wrote on the 60th anniversary of the liberation of another Nazi death camp, Auschwitz.



A personal reflection upon the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz

The horror of Auschwitz is a stark challenge to many to try and understand not only how this overt act of genocide could have happened, but how we allow this sort of violence to continue to take place in various parts of our world even today. Let no one think that the Holocaust was a unique event in human history, in that while it exceeded other genocides (e.g., Bosnia, Rwanda, and Sudan) in the numbers of innocent persons murdered, it was not different in the basic intent underlying these crimes against humanity. I think that this is why it is important to take a moment and recall the reality that was Auschwitz to ensure that deep within our own humanity we do not forget the unforgettable. For in remembering, one is forced to integrate these many lives - these trapped souls - into one's consciousness. Auschwitz must become a place that reminds the world of not only “man’s inhumanity to man”, but also the dignity of people that makes each of us responsible for world peace. The philosopher George Santayana is quoted as stating that “The one who does not remember history is bound to live through it again”. To this end, we must all bear witness to what takes place within our world each day of our lives.

It is a custom in the Jewish religion to leave a pebble atop a gravestone when visiting a loved one's resting place. May this short passage serve as a pebble of remembrance for those who died in Auschwitz, as well as for those distant members of my own family who I never knew and who died in Dachau (dachau-39 (http://www.photo.net/photo/pcd0075/dachau-39)). “Never Again”. Shalom, Paix, Peace.

Dr. Marc Glassman
Professor
Faculty of Education
Memorial University of Newfoundland

Rps
Nov 25th, 2009, 04:56 PM
emacMan, and what is your interpretation of the views of Hitler re Jewish bankers, and why do you feel it was justified?

Keep in mind that Fischer was a Holocaust denier, and as one who lost all his relatives still in Europe to the Nazi death camps at Dachau, I find his views offensive.

I am adding something I wrote on the 60th anniversary of the liberation of another Nazi death camp, Auschwitz.



A personal reflection upon the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz

The horror of Auschwitz is a stark challenge to many to try and understand not only how this overt act of genocide could have happened, but how we allow this sort of violence to continue to take place in various parts of our world even today. Let no one think that the Holocaust was a unique event in human history, in that while it exceeded other genocides (e.g., Bosnia, Rwanda, and Sudan) in the numbers of innocent persons murdered, it was not different in the basic intent underlying these crimes against humanity. I think that this is why it is important to take a moment and recall the reality that was Auschwitz to ensure that deep within our own humanity we do not forget the unforgettable. For in remembering, one is forced to integrate these many lives - these trapped souls - into one's consciousness. Auschwitz must become a place that reminds the world of not only “man’s inhumanity to man”, but also the dignity of people that makes each of us responsible for world peace. The philosopher George Santayana is quoted as stating that “The one who does not remember history is bound to live through it again”. To this end, we must all bear witness to what takes place within our world each day of our lives.

It is a custom in the Jewish religion to leave a pebble atop a gravestone when visiting a loved one's resting place. May this short passage serve as a pebble of remembrance for those who died in Auschwitz, as well as for those distant members of my own family who I never knew and who died in Dachau (dachau-39 (http://www.photo.net/photo/pcd0075/dachau-39)). “Never Again”. Shalom, Paix, Peace.

Dr. Marc Glassman
Professor
Faculty of Education
Memorial University of Newfoundland

Marc, very well written and to the point. I stand in wonderment that people do not question the validity of the moon landing but question the Holocaust .. what do they think, the Allies went out and got 20,000 of the best method actors they could find at the time for the filming .... these people should suck it up and just admit that a peer one country stooped to unimaginable evil and that with out critical review of the politics of today .... it may happen again.

chuckster
Nov 25th, 2009, 05:08 PM
My understanding of intelligence has always been: to understand a concept (mathematics, music, chess, mechanical devices, physics, etc.) completely and then have the ability to apply that concept.
Scores on tests aren't necessarily the best way to show this.
Nor does it apply throughout one's life: Einstein, like many others, achieved his breakthroughs with insight during his younger years.
I can appreciate someone's abilities in the arts more readily because I am more familiar with it. Some artists' depth of understanding awe me. But those flashes of insight or moments of genius don't last forever.
I believe when they're gone, it's back to being mostly hard work.
People like da Vinci are truly amazing for keeping that level most of their lives.

Snapple Quaffer
Nov 25th, 2009, 05:34 PM
Marc, very well written and to the point. I stand in wonderment that people do not question the validity of the moon landing but question the Holocaust .. what do they think, the Allies went out and got 20,000 of the best method actors they could find at the time for the filming .... these people should suck it up and just admit that a peer one country stooped to unimaginable evil and that with out critical review of the politics of today .... it may happen again.

Many years ago I saw a BBC production of The Resistible Rise of Arturo Ui, the final credits of which left me with the hairs standing up on the back of my neck.
Set against a grainy photograph, in close up, of a skeletal figure collapsed against barbed wire in a liberated concentration camp the following words scrolled silently up the screen:

Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men.
For though the world has stood up
and stopped the bastard,
the bitch that bore him is in heat again.
– Bertold Brecht, The Resistible Rise of Arturo Ui

Yes, indeed.

Dr.G.
Nov 25th, 2009, 06:41 PM
Marc, very well written and to the point. I stand in wonderment that people do not question the validity of the moon landing but question the Holocaust .. what do they think, the Allies went out and got 20,000 of the best method actors they could find at the time for the filming .... these people should suck it up and just admit that a peer one country stooped to unimaginable evil and that with out critical review of the politics of today .... it may happen again.

Well said, Rps. That is why I included the monument in front of Dachau which said “Never Again”. Shalom, mon ami.

eMacMan
Nov 25th, 2009, 06:41 PM
emacMan, and what is your interpretation of the views of Hitler re Jewish bankers, and why do you feel it was justified?

Keep in mind that Fischer was a Holocaust denier, and as one who lost all his relatives still in Europe to the Nazi death camps at Dachau, I find his views offensive.


Dr. Marc Glassman
Professor
Faculty of Education
Memorial University of Newfoundland

The point I was trying to make was that prior to WW2 Germany was being bled dry by the bankers. Then and even to some extent today the big players were Jewish. Even today countries are being bled dry by the international banks (Iceland, Ireland, USA etc.)

To use that as an excuse to exterminate an entire population or as an excuse for hatred was and remains unforgivable.

Funny how the phrase "Hitler was right" can alter the perception of a message. Another example of this is the phrase; " George Bush agrees that climate change is a reality." Now no matter how one feels on the issue he has to assume that Bush is lying as that is the history of the Shrub.

Dr.G.
Nov 25th, 2009, 06:43 PM
"Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men.
For though the world has stood up
and stopped the bastard,
the bitch that bore him is in heat again.
– Bertold Brecht, The Resistible Rise of Arturo Ui

Yes, indeed."

Sad, but all too true, SQ. Paix, mon ami.

Dr.G.
Nov 25th, 2009, 06:58 PM
The point I was trying to make was that prior to WW2 Germany was being bled dry by the bankers. Then and even to some extent today the big players were Jewish. Even today countries are being bled dry by the international banks (Iceland, Ireland, USA etc.)

To use that as an excuse to exterminate an entire population or as an excuse for hatred was and remains unforgivable.

Funny how the phrase "Hitler was right" can alter the perception of a message. Another example of this is the phrase; " George Bush agrees that climate change is a reality." Now no matter how one feels on the issue he has to assume that Bush is lying as that is the history of the Shrub.


Rather than blame an entire religion due to the actions of some bankers, some of whom were Jewish, among other religions, read up on your history first.

Germany was faced with the realities of the Treaty of Versailles, which was an agreement signed with France, Britain and America. It stated that Germany had to pay reparations for causing the war. That treaty, in my opinion, was too harsh and full of revenge.

The 'German Revolution' of 1918-19 had been very shallow, and the old elites were still firmly entrenched in key positions.

The Social Democrats (and liberals) were held responsible for the defeat in World War 1, and above all, for the armistice of November 1918.

The German Nationalists and the German military, who had been those pushing for war, refused to accept any responsibility for their role in embarking on a huge gamble in 1914.

Instead of accepting any responsibility at all, the hardline nationalists peddled all kinds of conspiracy theories, such as the 'stab-in-the-back' legend, and talked of Weimar as a 'Jewish Republic', which of course it was not.

In 1923 France and Belgium claimed that Germany had defaulted on reparations payments and occupied the Ruhr - the key industrial area of Germany. This was interpreted by most Germans as going beyond the Versailles Treaty.

Rps
Nov 25th, 2009, 07:32 PM
Again, Marc, well written and accurate. It is amazing how little we have learned from WW1 and WW2, is proof. WW3 is just around the corner ... how do I know this, we are simply repeating history.

Dr.G.
Nov 25th, 2009, 07:52 PM
Again, Marc, well written and accurate. It is amazing how little we have learned from WW1 and WW2, is proof. WW3 is just around the corner ... how do I know this, we are simply repeating history.

Again, all too true, Rps. Hitler exploited the fears, hunger and humiliation of many Germans once The Weimar Republic fell. He spelled out his basic beliefs in Mein Kampf. Sadly, few took his words to heart, and millions died as a result of doing little to stop him and the Nazi party when it had the chance.

In his own words .............

"The great masses of the people will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one."

"The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew."

This is why I fear intolerance, hatred and bigotry in the guise of freedom of speech. It is difficult to silence those who deny the Holocaust ever happened. Still, we must try to show these people for who they are, and expose them to the light of day. Lest we forget.

Paix, mon ami.

eMacMan
Nov 25th, 2009, 08:18 PM
Uh Marc. Kindly reread the post especially the part where I said it was wrong to blame an entire religion for the crimes of a few of its members. At least that was my intent.

kps
Nov 25th, 2009, 08:23 PM
This is why I fear intolerance, hatred and bigotry in the guise of freedom of speech. It is difficult to silence those who deny the Holocaust ever happened. Still, we must try to show these people for who they are, and expose them to the light of day. Lest we forget.

Paix, mon ami.

Fear not those that deny the holocaust, but those that feel it didn't go far enough.

Dr.G.
Nov 26th, 2009, 06:13 AM
Uh Marc. Kindly reread the post especially the part where I said it was wrong to blame an entire religion for the crimes of a few of its members. At least that was my intent.

Sorry, eMacMan. I misread your posting and lost the point you were trying to make. Mea culpa. Paix, mon ami.

Dr.G.
Nov 26th, 2009, 06:13 AM
Fear not those that deny the holocaust, but those that feel it didn't go far enough.

Sad, but all too true, kps. "Never again." Paix, mon ami.

Snapple Quaffer
Nov 26th, 2009, 07:04 AM
Genocidal behaviour seems to be an inbuilt feature of human beings. It's hardwired, in all of us I suspect, but buried very deeply. What the Nazis did was to engage in it on an industrial scale, continent-wide, using the latest technological, managerial and scientific methods available to them.

Their project went 'global'. Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally feeble (any more?) had to be eliminated.

And we're still, now, vicious, superstitious Iron Age tribalists deep down. We have higher technology available to us and many live lives free of hunger, cold and homelessness. But the words of Bertold Brecht always haunt me.

Dr.G.
Nov 26th, 2009, 07:08 AM
Genocidal behaviour seems to be an inbuilt feature of human beings. It's hardwired, in all of us I suspect, but buried very deeply. What the Nazis did was to engage in it on an industrial scale, continent-wide, using the latest technological, managerial and scientific methods available to them.

Their project went 'global'. Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally feeble (any more?) had to be eliminated.

And we're still, now, vicious, superstitious Iron Age tribalists deep down. We have higher technology available to us and many live lives free of hunger, cold and homelessness. But the words of Bertold Brecht always haunt me.

SQ, luckily, we also have (at least some of us do) the capacity to demonstrate intelligence, compassion and self-sacrifice. Paix, mon ami.

MazterCBlazter
Nov 26th, 2009, 12:32 PM
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HowEver
Nov 26th, 2009, 12:52 PM
Just because you aren't aware of it doesn't mean that Jewish organizations don't fight for the rights of others constantly and relentlessly.

As for Israel requiring that others be forcibly removed and murdered: no. The day that the state of Israel was created all the Arab countries declared war on Israel. Most have not relented to this day.

A Jewish state in Germany? Are you confused?

As for these arguments taking precedence, is this because you ignore calls for human rights for others, or are just somehow focused on this cause?

And concerning oppression in Palestine: if you were offered a state, and you only had to recognize that another people had a right to live freely in theirs, would you decline and keep killing your neighbours, or agree to live peacefully and enjoy your new statehood?

The comments you make about "self-interest," along with the "Jewish bankers caused the Holocaust" stuff earlier in the thread, are classically anti-Semitic statements. They pretty much define the idea.

It's not the first time that a group of people have been blamed for their own persecution. And it does seem to be a common theme throughout history. Is that too focused for you?



There have been many huge atrocities done against many different peoples over the history of the world and up to and including the present day.

What I do not understand is why what happened to the Jewish race seems to take precedent over all other genocides committed, and why it is so much more important than the other ones that were and are being committed?

The holocaust took place in Germany, before that in the land now called Israel the Arab people there offered sanctuary to as many Jewish people as they could while the Nazi's were on their murderous rampage. In that part of the middle east the Muslims, Jews, Christians and others all lived there together peacefully.

Why after wards were they murdered and continue to be harassed and their lives ruled and wrecked as less than second class humans in the land they all shared as equals before the nation of Israel was created in it's current form? The non Jewish people there were forcibly removed and murdered to make way.

The holocaust happened in Germany, the area that the current nation of Israel had nothing to do with those atrocities. Those people helped Jewish people at the time, and then they were betrayed and it has been a big mess and very unfair ever since.

They should have been given land in Germany, where they were oppressed, instead of stealing it from the current location by unjust force.

The Jewish people say "never again" well it seems that this only applies to them and not the people that they are oppressing in Palestine.

What about the other people in the world that have had to and continue to endure mass oppression? It would have been nice if the Jewish people of the world learned from their situation and then worked together to make a stand for all other people of the world that had to go through what they did.

It seems to me that the only people that matter to them is themselves and their self interests.

Dr.G.
Nov 26th, 2009, 12:53 PM
MCB, Judiasm is a religion, not a race. That holocaust is no more important than what happened to the Armenians by Turkey, to the people in Ukraine by Stalin, and up to our modern day slaughter of innocent people. As well, The Holocaust did not just happen in Germany. It was the systematic extermination of those of the Jewish religion, along with others, across Europe.

For the record, I do not support some of the moves of Israel (e.g., The Wall) against the Palestinian people, nor do I support the settlement programs on the West Bank.

MazterCBlazter
Nov 26th, 2009, 03:58 PM
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Dr.G.
Nov 26th, 2009, 04:21 PM
"Also the People of East Timor come to mind." Yes, MCB, along with others, sad to say. An error of omission on my part.

I hate being labeled anti-semetic. I love my Jewish friends, and Dr.G. here is my favourite ehMacer and he's Jewish too. " I did not label you an anti-semite. Just trying to point out some points to counter-balance what you wrote. Shalom, mon ami.

MazterCBlazter
Nov 26th, 2009, 04:28 PM
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Dr.G.
Nov 26th, 2009, 04:39 PM
Shalom my friend,

It was However that made reference to my comments as being Anti-Semetic. I know that you know that I am not one of those kind of people. I do like to point out and question things that may be politically incorrect. I don't accept things just because it is the acceptable or in thing to do.

I see your point, MCB, and knowing you as I do from your posts in The Shang, I know you are not anti-semitic. We disagree on various things, and I question some of your comments, but I do know that deep down you are a good person. Shalom, mon ami.

HowEver
Nov 26th, 2009, 05:51 PM
This is an interesting way to look at things. But there certainly were not going to be several such new states, and the historical reasons for the state in the Middle East were overwhelming. The land did not belong to "Palestinians" beforehand--no one identified themselves this way in the 1940s. And people were displaced from *every* country/land in the region. Many of today's Palestinians--completely deserving of their own state as well--come from Lebanon, Syria, Egypt--countries where they would be jailed in an instant for violence against the state, and countries where they were never offered citizenship or human rights. There is of course no call for those states to grant them citizenship or to give up land for a Palestinian state. Only one country is being asked to do that--and handed it over--and continues to suffer as a result.

Like Dr.G. said, though, the Holocaust while it was devised in Germany was effected throughout Europe. What you wrote that was harmful was this idea that some people's "self-interest" supposedly placed them above others; that they disregarded other people's plights; that you were being asked to only think about their situation at the expense of others. None of that is true, nor defensible. But if it *seems* that way, you could hardly blame people who so recently lost millions of their own so horribly, if for a while they continued to practise the same "self-interest" that other people were allowed without being it being a negative trait, rather than simply self-preservation in the face of thousands of years of persecution.



Questioning a situation is not anti-Semetic and is nowhere near the statement about "Jewish bankers causing the Holocaust".

Why not give them land in Germany where the Holocaust was planned and executed back then? That is where this great crime was perpetrated, it would have been more fair than forcibly evicting previous friends and allies that had nothing to with the holocaust, thousands of miles away in a brutal manner. The Jewish State would then not have been part of Germany, it would then have been part of Europe. They could have called it "New Israel."

That the nation of Israel is where it now is cannot and should not be changed. I also blame both sides that the mess continues. It is a complicated situation but with all the resources that the nation of Israel has they could do more to help the people of Palestine instead of putting fuel on the fire. The Palestinians seem to have a backward stone age mentality among many of their people. Do they have access to education, medical care, standard of living, and opportunities like the Israelis? Perhaps if they had more in this area things would cool down over time.

I hope that in the future that things will move in a more positive direction over there.



Also the People of East Timor come to mind.

I hate being labeled anti-semetic. I love my Jewish friends, and Dr.G. here is my favourite ehMacer and he's Jewish too.

Rps
Nov 26th, 2009, 06:26 PM
I'm a little rusty on my Middle East history, other than certain Arab states couldn't run their tanks fast enough through their Arab brother's neighbourhoods on the way to attack Israel in 1948, didn't Allenby screw up that area when he neglected to tell the future Israelis that for their help in defeating the Nazis they would get the same piece of sand for their homeland that the British Government promised the Arabs if they helped them as well?

Just wonderin'......

Rps
Nov 26th, 2009, 06:30 PM
By the way, I find this thread fascinating, as we've gone from someone not on the list of geniuses [ and I'm still upset I wasn't listed....... ] to the Middle East .......... maybe the person who can explain how we allowed ourselves to get here should be added to the list.......

Dr.G.
Nov 26th, 2009, 06:58 PM
"There is of course no call for those states to grant them citizenship or to give up land for a Palestinian state. Only one country is being asked to do that--and handed it over--and continues to suffer as a result." Very true, HowEver. I feel that many of the countries would rather see the situation on the West Bank and Gaza remain as it is to keep the tensions high in the region. As well, none of these countries has ever openly supported an option of having the Palestinians come to their countries.

History, and different perceptions of history, are perhaps the most important factors in the Arab-Israeli conflict. Accounts of history, interpreting history in different ways, are used to justify claims and to negate claims, to vilify the enemy and to glorify "our own" side, regardless of who "our side" represents.

I have had long debates with friends of mine living in Israel over the various policies undertaken by Israel. One lives in Haifa, and is fairly safe and feels as I do on certain issues (e.g., bulldozing the homes of a convicted terrorist only breeds more hatred). Another friend lives in a settlement that is rocketed about once a month. He had a rocket slam into a home about 100 feet from his home.

Still, as they keep telling me, I am here in St.John's, with a Jewish population of about 150 in total. They live in a country surrounded by those who, at best, tolerate their country, and, at worst, want to kill off all Jews living in Israel. Not sure how I would feel if I was living under those conditions.

ertman
Nov 26th, 2009, 08:14 PM
First IQ tests don't accurately measure intellegence. This has already been stated several times in this thread.

Second, I would still contest the level of intellegence of these people. I would also challenge that many with their hi IQ scores did really nothing with it... Maybe their "high intellegence" was some myth. Also some where maybe part idiot savants?

chas_m
Nov 26th, 2009, 08:56 PM
Being intelligent isn't the be-all and end-all of genius. There's also ambition, vision, necessity and other factors at play.

I've definitely had moments of genius that produced work people still talk about 30 years later. But most of the time I'm just an ambitionless smartarse. :)

MazterCBlazter
Nov 26th, 2009, 09:19 PM
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MazterCBlazter
Nov 26th, 2009, 09:20 PM
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CubaMark
Apr 22nd, 2010, 02:18 PM
http://www.geekologie.com/2010/04/21/einsteins-desk.jpg (http://kottke.org/10/04/einsteins-desk)

Here's a photograph of Albert Einstein's Princeton desk taken only a few hours after he died in 1955. It's from a slideshow of photos taken at the time of Einstein's death but never published before last week.

(Kottke.org (http://kottke.org/10/04/einsteins-desk))