: H1N1 outrage continues.


rgray
Nov 11th, 2009, 06:16 PM
Ottawa H1N1 clinics are closing due to lack of vaccine!! (source: CBC Ottawa TV news this evening)

The public health system in Canada has a lot to answer for. Quite possibly people will die as a direct result of this massive failure of the system. I am hoping that a major enquiry will be called for and that we see at least a few heads roll.

kps
Nov 11th, 2009, 07:50 PM
Gee how can that be... no shortages for private schools in the GTA, no shortages for Taliban captives, there must be a surplus 'cause they're throwing some out due to spoilage while I can't even line up because I'm not in the high risk category. These morons couldn't organize an empty room and heads should roll, but you and I both know...they wont.

MannyP Design
Nov 11th, 2009, 08:24 PM
CTV News | Canada won't be offering Afghan detainees H1N1 vaccine (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20091111/afghan_vaccine_091111/20091111?hub=TopStoriesV2)

Canada has long held to Geneva conventions when it comes to medical care...

Outrageous. ;)

SINC
Nov 11th, 2009, 08:31 PM
Gee how can that be... no shortages for private schools in the GTA, no shortages for Taliban captives, there must be a surplus 'cause they're throwing some out due to spoilage while I can't even line up because I'm not in the high risk category. These morons couldn't organize an empty room and heads should roll, but you and I both know...they wont.

I was in the high risk group for every flu for the past 10 years due to my heart condition and was immunized for the regular flu shot in late October, but the cutoff date for anyone with a heart condition in Alberta for H1N1 is age 64. I'm 65 and will have to wait until the very last group to get the shot, heart condition or not.

bsenka
Nov 11th, 2009, 08:36 PM
That's how you create demand for something that you have a huge order of, but most people aren't interested in: tell them there's a shortage.

MazterCBlazter
Nov 11th, 2009, 08:56 PM
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MazterCBlazter
Nov 11th, 2009, 09:00 PM
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kps
Nov 11th, 2009, 09:02 PM
I was in the high risk group for every flu for the past 10 years due to my heart condition and was immunized for the regular flu shot in late October, but the cutoff date for anyone with a heart condition in Alberta for H1N1 is age 64. I'm 65 and will have to wait until the very last group to get the shot, heart condition or not.

By the time our turn comes up, SINC, we won't need it. ;)

SINC
Nov 11th, 2009, 09:22 PM
By the time our turn comes up, SINC, we won't need it. ;)

Yep, either that or I'll be dead. ;)

FeXL
Nov 11th, 2009, 11:24 PM
Yep, either that or I'll be dead. ;)

Well, I'm kinda hopin' for the former, then...

eMacMan
Nov 12th, 2009, 12:13 AM
Yep, either that or I'll be dead. ;)

Yes there is a certain comfort in being a part of the "Still Living" mob. :rolleyes:

MannyP Design
Nov 12th, 2009, 07:27 AM
That's how you create demand for something that you have a huge order of, but most people aren't interested in: tell them there's a shortage.

Yup. That's exactly what Health Canada has been doing. :rolleyes:

bsenka
Nov 12th, 2009, 10:25 AM
Yup. That's exactly what Health Canada has been doing. :rolleyes:

It's what the nurses I spoke to were told during orientation before the clinics even opened: There is plenty of vaccine to go around, but so few people say they want to get vaccinated, so we're going to tell people that there's a shortage and they'll line up to get it.

MLeh
Nov 12th, 2009, 10:40 AM
By the time our turn comes up, SINC, we won't need it. ;)

As I understand it, the reason the over 65 group is not a higher priority is because a similar strain of H1N1 went through the population in 1957, so most older people already have a natural immunity. So you may not need it already.

I know my father - aged 80 - had a flu last week, which was probably H1N1 (they're not bothering to test to determine the strain anymore), and aside from feeling 'pretty nasty' he suffered much less than the younger people I know who have had it. My mother, who is the same age, has severe respiratory issues, but didn't catch it from him. She gets her flu shot every year but let the younger, more vulnerable to complications, people get their H1N1 shots and isn't jumping the queue. She's not letting it worry her.

So, maybe if every one just gets over their emotionalism and looks at the facts, and quits stressing about it, everyone will be much better off.

Stress kills far more people than the flu does.

HowEver
Nov 12th, 2009, 10:48 AM
Nice explanation. It would help if this was widely reported. Or was it, and some people have just forgotten it?



As I understand it, the reason the over 65 group is not a higher priority is because a similar strain of H1N1 went through the population in 1957, so most older people already have a natural immunity. So you may not need it already.

I know my father - aged 80 - had a flu last week, which was probably H1N1 (they're not bothering to test to determine the strain anymore), and aside from feeling 'pretty nasty' he suffered much less than the younger people I know who have had it. My mother, who is the same age, has severe respiratory issues, but didn't catch it from him. She gets her flu shot every year but let the younger, more vulnerable to complications, people get their H1N1 shots and isn't jumping the queue. She's not letting it worry her.

So, maybe if every one just gets over their emotionalism and looks at the facts, and quits stressing about it, everyone will be much better off.

Stress kills far more people than the flu does.

MLeh
Nov 12th, 2009, 11:53 AM
Nice explanation. It would help if this was widely reported. Or was it, and some people have just forgotten it?

I thought it was pretty widely reported. Perhaps people forget about the needs of others in this 'me first' society.

MannyP Design
Nov 12th, 2009, 12:12 PM
It's what the nurses I spoke to were told during orientation before the clinics even opened: There is plenty of vaccine to go around, but so few people say they want to get vaccinated, so we're going to tell people that there's a shortage and they'll line up to get it.

Right. So the fact they they're closing clinics within hours of opening because they run out of vaccines has nothing to do with shortages, but to give the public a perception as well.

And the fact that the military says they're willing to share a portion of their vaccines (http://telegraphjournal.canadaeast.com/rss/article/848557) to any province that requests it is what... exactly?

Riiiiight. :lmao:

SINC
Nov 12th, 2009, 12:18 PM
I thought it was pretty widely reported. Perhaps people forget about the needs of others in this 'me first' society.

Just to be clear, I knew of the previous strain in 1957 (I was 14 and had the flu that year, a week off from grade seven) and have not been particularly worried about waiting my turn. I trust the information is correct and in spite of a heart condition, I feel confident I am in no real danger.

SINC
Nov 12th, 2009, 12:34 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm:

CBC News - Health - H1N1 a 'dud' pandemic, Ont. health official says (http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/11/12/h1n1-vaccine-costs.html?ref=rss)

Dr.G.
Nov 12th, 2009, 12:45 PM
Let's hope the virus does not mutate in this wave. We shall see.

MazterCBlazter
Nov 12th, 2009, 12:54 PM
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HowEver
Nov 12th, 2009, 01:14 PM
If the government had done nothing, thousands would be assailing them at every turn.

So let's say the vaccine saves a neighbour's kid from death. Sure it's only one in a thousand, but they get saved. What's that worth? What if it was your kid?

It's a real no-win for government policy. Except the parts about the delivery of the vaccines, and choosing only one manufacturer. But deciding to provide the vaccine to those who volunteer to get it seems reasonable.

In an article that interviews a public health official--sorry, former public health official, as in, the kind that aren't in charge now, and don't have access to all the information the most informed decision requires--we get polling information. Did the doctor run out of things to say? Were there no other retired officials to interview? Perhaps a few people who wanted public office or to serve in some capacity but didn't?

It makes sense, I guess, to keep the uninformed opinions and *polls* in their own articles.

Dr.G.
Nov 12th, 2009, 01:28 PM
"If the government had done nothing, thousands would be assailing them at every turn.

It's a real no-win for government policy."

Both are valid points, HowEver, and this is the way I am viewing this situation.

MannyP Design
Nov 12th, 2009, 01:51 PM
Just a lot of hysteria, government waste and misinformation pumped out by officials, experts, and scientists? Looks that way once again.Hmm. Seems to me I recall Health Canada and doctors were taking the media to task last year over the sensationalism over H1N1. But I guess if you repeat something enough it becomes true. :rolleyes:

kps
Nov 12th, 2009, 08:30 PM
As I understand it, the reason the over 65 group is not a higher priority is because a similar strain of H1N1 went through the population in 1957, so most older people already have a natural immunity. So you may not need it already.

Stress kills far more people than the flu does.

Yo! I was born in '57. Don't remember getting the H1N1 flu as a new born infant.

These politicians and health ministry flunkies give me stress...;)

rgray
Nov 12th, 2009, 09:06 PM
These politicians and health ministry flunkies give me stress...;)

Careful with that - stress is a risk factor for many kinds of opportunistic infections like flu!!!! ;)

kps
Nov 12th, 2009, 09:52 PM
As long as it's not any stress related "opportunistic" viral STDs...I'm golden.;)

SINC
Nov 13th, 2009, 12:46 AM
Alberta's H1N1 rollout gets lowest grade in the country with a nearly 60% dissatisfaction level.

I guess that is what happens when you hire a foreigner to administer your health care system. Aussie Stephen Duckett, head of Alberta Health and health minister Ron Liepert should both be fired.

CBC News - Edmonton - Alberta's H1N1 rollout gets lowest grade (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/story/2009/11/12/edmonton-flu-poll-update.html)

fjnmusic
Nov 13th, 2009, 05:31 AM
"The survey of 3,502 people was conducted by telephone between Nov. 4 and Nov. 10, 2009, and has an error margin of plus or minus 1.7 percentage points, 19 times out of 20. Both landline and cellphone users were included."

What I want to know is, with that kind of margin of error, what happens on the 20 time? Is it one of those all-bets-are-off, knock-down, drag-em-out, put-the-baby-to-bed kind of error margins on that 20th time?

hhk
Nov 13th, 2009, 06:25 AM
Sinc:

Have you actually tried to claim high risk due to your heart condition?. I mean, I had a friend who got it by claiming to be asthmatic. He had one asthma attack when he was 5 years old. The screening at the clinics is apparently pretty loose.

HK

MLeh
Nov 13th, 2009, 08:32 AM
Yo! I was born in '57. Don't remember getting the H1N1 flu as a new born infant.

These politicians and health ministry flunkies give me stress...;)

And that, math genius, is why the cut off age is 65 - someone born in 1957 would be 52 years old now. Someone who is 65 or older now would have been out at school or work and more likely to be exposed to the virus when it rolled around in 1957. If you are born in 1957 and have a chronic health condition you qualify for a vaccination.

kps
Nov 13th, 2009, 09:06 AM
LOL, the only chronic condition I have, is health ministry induced stress. This whole H1N1 fiasco is an epic fail across all levels of government.

eMacMan
Nov 13th, 2009, 09:56 AM
LOL, the only chronic condition I have, is health ministry induced stress. This whole H1N1 fiasco is an epic fail across all levels of government.

This has been a test of the Emergency Pandemic Panic System.

This was only a test.

Had this been a real Pandemic, you would be dead!beejacon

SINC
Nov 13th, 2009, 09:59 AM
Sinc:

Have you actually tried to claim high risk due to your heart condition?. I mean, I had a friend who got it by claiming to be asthmatic. He had one asthma attack when he was 5 years old. The screening at the clinics is apparently pretty loose.

HK

Nope, considered it but decided not to do so.

If they're right about the age, I'm in no real danger. Besides they announced all seniors would be accepted beginning Tuesday, so I will go then.

MazterCBlazter
Nov 13th, 2009, 10:25 AM
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MannyP Design
Nov 13th, 2009, 11:37 AM
Apparently people fail at understanding what the word pandemic means. :lmao:

MannyP Design
Nov 13th, 2009, 11:42 AM
@ehMax. Oh, Alllllllright. beejacon

ehMax
Nov 13th, 2009, 12:11 PM
@MannyP.... be nice.

eMacMan
Nov 13th, 2009, 12:37 PM
Apparently people fail at understanding what the word pandemic means. :lmao:

I assume you mean the mainstream media Pandemic Panic Pushers and anyone who relies on that bunch for useful information.:D

MannyP Design
Nov 13th, 2009, 01:53 PM
I assume you mean the mainstream media Pandemic Panic Pushers and anyone who relies on that bunch for useful information.:DSure, why not. Let's just throw around useless blanket statements... if you can't pound the facts, just pound the table.

bsenka
Nov 13th, 2009, 01:57 PM
Apparently people fail at understanding what the word pandemic means. :lmao:

Except that WHO decided to conveniently change the definition of the word to suit their panic agenda.

used to be jwoodget
Nov 13th, 2009, 04:09 PM
If this was as dangerous as they claimed it was, sporting events would have been cancelled, the remembrance day services worldwide would have told everyone to stay home, movie theaters would be closed, schools would be closed, community centers would all be closed, shopping centers, buses, and stores would require everyone that goes to them wear masks and gloves. etc.
To be frank, the only reason the vaccine is paid for is to mitigate the chaos that would occur if the various businesses were to close. The vaccine is costing around a $1.5 billion. The economic cost of SARS was a lot higher and it affected only a few centres. CBC News Indepth: SARS (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/sars/economicimpact.html)

I'm not defending the shoddy way the vaccine has been distributed but there have been double the deaths in the USA that we've seen in Canada on a per capita basis.

used to be jwoodget
Nov 13th, 2009, 04:20 PM
bsenka, the only consistent messages through out the current outbreak have been the levels of unsubstantiated hearsay and claims by you. You'd gain a modicum of credibility in my book if you actually backed up your claims with factual references. A pandemic is defined by the numbers of countries reporting. Since the medical severity of an outbreak cannot be determined until its actually in full flight and often not until its over, its not part of the definition.

Here's a non-WHO sourced definition. Pandemic definition - Medical Dictionary definitions of popular medical terms easily defined on MedTerms (http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=4751) No mention of severity. Must be a conspiracy, eh?

Pandemic: An epidemic (a sudden outbreak) that becomes very widespread and affects a whole region, a continent, or the world.

By contrast:

An epidemic affects more than the expected number of cases of disease occurring in a community or region during a given period of time. A sudden severe outbreak within a region or a group as, for example, AIDS in Africa or AIDS in intravenous drug users.
An endemic is present in a community at all times but in low frequency. An endemic is continuous as in the case of malaria in some areas of the world or as with illicit drugs in some neighborhoods.
The word "pandemic" comes from the Greek "pan-", "all" + "demos", "people or population" = "pandemos" = "all the people." A pandemic affects all (nearly all) of the people. By contrast, "epi-" means "upon." An epidemic is visited upon the people. And "en-" means "in." An endemic is in the people.

Macfury
Nov 13th, 2009, 04:28 PM
I've already been "swined" and while the flu lasted a long time, I carefully washed my hands, avoided contact and nobody else at home caught it. It's just a flu folks.

chasMac
Nov 13th, 2009, 04:35 PM
It's just a flu folks.


I know a few people who have had confirmed cases, and their accounts vary. One said it was like nothing he ever had, like his lungs were collapsing. Others, that it is just like any seasonal flu. I understand, from some of the educated posts here that it is not like the regular flu, just feels that way to most of my friends who've been so afflicted.

MannyP Design
Nov 13th, 2009, 05:04 PM
Except that WHO decided to conveniently change the definition of the word to suit their panic agenda.

The only agenda are the vocal minority who believe that there's some sort of global conspiracy to trick people into getting a vaccination to make "big pharma" tonnes of cash by convincing people there's a shortage... when there's not... and getting clinics to vaccinate children and others deemed "at risk"... because it's all for show.

And because one nurse said so. :rolleyes:

If I didn't know any better, I'd say it's the anti-vax drones causing the fuss.

Max
Nov 13th, 2009, 05:09 PM
Sent by the grey aliens! Because that's what they do.

MannyP Design
Nov 13th, 2009, 05:18 PM
Sent by the grey aliens! Because that's what they do.
You know they're actually green, right? The grey alien stereotype was perpetrated by foreign governments with hidden agendas and monochrome televisions to fool and sway the people into mindlessly supporting crappy Hollywood movies.

The dude at the local video store told me that, once. It's true.

MazterCBlazter
Nov 13th, 2009, 05:22 PM
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fjnmusic
Nov 13th, 2009, 05:25 PM
I know a few people who have had confirmed cases, and their accounts vary. One said it was like nothing he ever had, like his lungs were collapsing. Others, that it is just like any seasonal flu. I understand, from some of the educated posts here that it is not like the regular flu, just feels that way to most of my friends who've been so afflicted.

And there's the rub. Nobody really knows how it's going to affect them. I choose to err on the side of caution with my family. Maybe it's no more threatening than the Y2K bug. But then again, maybe not. I don't want to be the test case for the deadly potential of this virus. And neither do you, deep down inside.

chasMac
Nov 13th, 2009, 05:30 PM
And neither do you, deep down inside.

Deep down inside? I don't think I alluded to an aversion to getting the shot. No question about it. When the gov affords my demographic the opportunity, I will be getting it, unless that is, by that point it would be a redundant endeavour, if you catch my drift.

fjnmusic
Nov 13th, 2009, 05:35 PM
Deep down inside? I don't think I alluded to an aversion to getting the shot. No question about it. When the gov affords my demographic the opportunity, I will be getting it, unless that is, by that point it would be a redundant endeavour, if you catch my drift.

Drift caught. I actually meant "you" in the more universal sense of "everyone". Sorry for the confusion. I guess it's times like these a person can be thankful for diabetes. Or to be a Calgary Flame. :)

Macfury
Nov 13th, 2009, 05:44 PM
I know a few people who have had confirmed cases, and their accounts vary. One said it was like nothing he ever had, like his lungs were collapsing. Others, that it is just like any seasonal flu. I understand, from some of the educated posts here that it is not like the regular flu, just feels that way to most of my friends who've been so afflicted.

Mileage varies on all sorts of flus. We normally hear very little about people who really suffer for most flues that come down the pipe. Norwalk was awful compared to this in my experience.

MazterCBlazter
Nov 13th, 2009, 07:02 PM
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used to be jwoodget
Nov 13th, 2009, 07:23 PM
The 4000 deaths number for seasonal flu is an estimate because (get this) the actual cause of death is rarely confirmed when flu strikes an elderly person. The ~200 Canadian deaths of H1N1 so far are confirmed H1N1 cases. Unfortunately, the regular flu tends to be the last straw that hits a lot of weakened folk, many of whom live in group homes. Ironically, this group is at least partly immune to H1N1 and we kick up a storm when it hits another demographic. No one seems to speak up for the elderly. Of course we all have to die of something.

MazterCBlazter
Nov 13th, 2009, 08:24 PM
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eMacMan
Nov 13th, 2009, 08:59 PM
I can remember at least two flu bouts that had me thinking about writing a will. One was when I was 20 and the second was when I was in my early forties.

Every flu is like that. One person gets off with a scratchy throat and runny nose while the next victim gets knocked flat on their a$$ and it's not always those with weak immune systems. The big difference with this version is that it seems somewhat less virulent than some other strains. Mortality rates are pretty much the same. Beyond that the Big-Pharma/Mad-Media conglomerate has hyped it way beyond its actual threat, with profit being their main motive.

What it comes down to is this; If you trust Big Pharma more than your own immune system by all means get a flu shot. Those of us that trust our own bodies more than we do Big Pharma will avoid the flu shots like the plague.

For me the scary part is that when a truly virulent & deadly pandemic does hit, the reliance on Big Pharma may make us slow to use more effective isolation techniques. A couple of days can make a huge difference with a really virulent outbreak such as SARS.

MazterCBlazter
Nov 13th, 2009, 10:28 PM
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used to be jwoodget
Nov 13th, 2009, 11:25 PM
It is not a question of trusting your immune system. Vaccines induce immunity that would otherwise only be achieved after infection. By the time your immune system has gotten it's act together, the virus may have done the damage. Being healthy helps, but, ironically, imbalance of inappropriate immune reactivity through inflammatory cytokines can cause multiple organ failure. I can see why healthy people question having something injected into them, but it's all about getting a leg up on a virus that is indiscriminate.

BTW SARS was not hyper-infectious. H1N1 is far, far more infectious, like most true influenzas. SARS was a relative of Coronaviruses - the cause of the common cold. The information is out there if anyone wants facts.

MazterCBlazter
Nov 14th, 2009, 11:00 AM
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used to be jwoodget
Nov 14th, 2009, 03:58 PM
Actually, all the quotes are from Dr. Richard Schabas who has been outspoken about the exaggeration of the seriousness of H1N1. He has a point but I don't really think he's helping to be honest since his quotation of the 20:1 risk of a teenager being killed in an accident compared to flu suggests we can't do anything about either. Teens dying in car accidents is a tragedy that can be prevented, as can death by the flu. It's just a lot easier (and cheaper) to do something about the flu. Schabas is not against vaccination, per se and he agrees that the vaccine development was a good thing since we didn't know how severe it could be (and initial indications were dire). Once you've spent a few hundred million beginning to develop a vaccine and then data begins to indicate the death rate looks to be 10-fold less than initially feared, do you stop?

Over 30 million people have now been vaccinated globally. Several thousand have died from the flu. D'ya think we'd have seen validated evidence or even headlines of people having severe side reactions by now? At what point is it declared safe? 50 million vaccinations? 100 million? Your chance of having a severe adverse side effect from this shot is similar to the chance of being hurt by a chunk of ice falling from a plane.

Sentinel tests are still showing that well over 95% of flu infections are currently due to H1N1. Since the interventions for seasonal versus H1N1 flu are the same, there is no point testing everyone (the PCR test takes too long to have any impact on outcome in any case). As we get into December, more seasonal flu cases will doubtless appear.

As for severity, it looks like the comparison to seasonal flu is, unfortunately, getting closer (and affecting a much younger demographic). Second H1N1 wave takes lethal toll on Canadians - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/h1n1-swine-flu/second-h1n1-wave-takes-lethal-toll-on-canadians/article1361766/)

Flu linked to death of ‘rising young chemistry star' - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/flu-linked-to-death-of-rising-young-chemistry-star/article1363375/)

Dr.G.
Nov 14th, 2009, 04:33 PM
Our province is getting ready for "the second wave" of the H1N1 flu, expanding the list of those who are not eligible to get the vaccine. At the rate we are getting the vaccines, by Groundhog Day, any and all people in NL who want this shot will have had their opportunity to get the vaccine. We shall see.

eMacMan
Nov 14th, 2009, 09:39 PM
...At the rate we are getting the vaccines, by Groundhog Day, any and all people in NL who want this shot will have had their opportunity to get the vaccine. We shall see.

That should help immensely IF the disease should spread to the groundhog population.beejacon

rgray
Nov 14th, 2009, 10:08 PM
That should help immensely IF the disease should spread to the groundhog population.beejacon

Don't joke about that. H1N1 has already appeared in cats transferred from humans.
A 16-pound orange cat in Ames, Iowa, did something last month that will now and forevermore have a lot of cat lovers taking care to sneeze into their sleeves.

The 13-year-old tabby came down with H1N1 swine flu, proving that humans ill with the flu virus should take pains not to spread it to cats as well as humans.

The case surprised human and animal health authorities, who hadn't seen a human flu virus passed to a cat before, though passionate cat lovers were shaking their heads when it was reported last week.
Cat swine flu: H1N1 latest illness shared by owner, pet -- chicagotribune.com (http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/chi-flu-pets_mullennov08,0,7440266.story) - an interesting article on 'zoonotic' diseases.

fjnmusic
Nov 14th, 2009, 11:42 PM
Subject: FW: EX-HEALTH MINISTER OF FINLAND MAKING AN EYE-AWAKING STATEMENT

Check out this link for an interesting perspective.

YouTube - La Dra Rauni Kilde habla sobre la Conspiración de la Gripe Porcina (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTgyakGAddM)

used to be jwoodget
Nov 15th, 2009, 12:53 AM
Subject: FW: EX-HEALTH MINISTER OF FINLAND MAKING AN EYE-AWAKING STATEMENT

Check out this link for an interesting perspective.

YouTube - La Dra Rauni Kilde habla sobre la Conspiración de la Gripe Porcina (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTgyakGAddM)
What's amazing is that 2.2 million people have viewed that crackpot on YouTube. Same league as the 9/11 conspiracists. Does she honestly think that it makes any sense for drug companies to be conspiring to kill 4 billion people?

eMacMan
Nov 15th, 2009, 10:50 AM
What's amazing is that 2.2 million people have viewed that crackpot on YouTube. Same league as the 9/11 conspiracists. Does she honestly think that it makes any sense for drug companies to be conspiring to kill 4 billion people?

Buildings (WTC7) do not spontaneously collapse in sympathy for their fallen comrades. Calling those that point this out crackpots, fails totally to advance Big Pharma's cause.beejacon

MannyP Design
Nov 15th, 2009, 12:25 PM
Buildings (WTC7) do not spontaneously collapse in sympathy for their fallen comrades. Calling those that point this out crackpots, fails totally to advance Big Pharma's cause.beejacon

And yet everyone becomes structural engineers in the span of a 10 minute video.

http://miltonsearch.com/entertainment/images/blob.jpg
AMAZING!

eMacMan
Nov 15th, 2009, 01:19 PM
And yet everyone becomes structural engineers in the span of a 10 minute video.

Notice you did not produce video of any other major structure suffering from a spontaneous collapse. If you don't like the explosives theory that leaves only extremely shoddy engineering and/or construction. Whatever the cause a very thorough investigation should have taken place before the evidence was carted off and destroyed.

As I said calling people crackpots for disagreeing does not enhance ones arguments.

used to be jwoodget
Nov 15th, 2009, 01:54 PM
eMacMan - I don't normally call people crackpots, but that "ex-minister" is being irresponsible in the extreme and her comments are self-inconsistent and irrational. If you agree with her thesis, please explain why. It makes no sense whatsoever and flies in the face of a mountain of contrary evidence in terms of safety and efficacy. Conspiracy theories make great fiction. Like celebrity, they rarely make sense in the light of cold, hard facts. Typically, she provides no substantiating evidence. It is pure paranoia and conjecture and feeds on the suspicions and ignorance of anyone who, for whatever reason (good or bad), is looking for an excuse to challenge vaccination. In this case, its time to call a spade a spade.

MannyP Design
Nov 15th, 2009, 06:45 PM
Notice you did not produce video of any other major structure suffering from a spontaneous collapse. If you don't like the explosives theory that leaves only extremely shoddy engineering and/or construction. Whatever the cause a very thorough investigation should have taken place before the evidence was carted off and destroyed.

As I said calling people crackpots for disagreeing does not enhance ones arguments.

I don't need to, I live with an engineer and have engineering friends. None of them blinked twice when watching the 9/11 footage. Besides, linking videos to the contrary will neither prove nor disprove your opinion--YOU could simply look for the videos yourself.

But chances you haven't, and you won't. :heybaby:

rgray
Nov 16th, 2009, 07:19 AM
Hand puppets are latest victims of H1N1 flu (http://www.postbulletin.com/newsmanager/templates/localnews_story.asp?z=47&a=425461)

Dr.G.
Nov 16th, 2009, 07:52 AM
Hand puppets are latest victims of H1N1 flu (http://www.postbulletin.com/newsmanager/templates/localnews_story.asp?z=47&a=425461)

Sad. :-( Still, better safe than sorry.

YouTube - Mr Dressup and CBC promos 1980s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnraFszMxSA)

YouTube - Friendly Giant Intro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Vm2-JUldNw&feature=related)

YouTube - Captain Kangaroo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeuBimBWU-8&feature=fvw)