: Careful out there buying off Kiji or Craigslist GTA


MacDoc
Aug 25th, 2009, 01:04 PM
Good friend and client got mugged trying to buy a MacBook Air off of Kiji.

He's okay tho roughed up .... he gave as good as he got and ended up only losing his iPhone in the scrap..his background in the dodgier parts of London England stood him in good stead...

Cops know about the guys doing it but have not caught them.

Pretty sophisticated and pretty violent....one victim ended up with a broken back after being tossed down a garbage chute ( tale courtesy of the cops that responded ). Nasty enough that they have the major crime unit engaged trying to catch them ( Toronto area ).

Not restricted to dodgy areas or buildings.....price was not out of line and they do a floating operation using other people's apartments...


Caveat Emptor big time...... :mad:

maximusbibicus
Aug 25th, 2009, 01:17 PM
I have bought and sold numerous items here and on Kijiji/Craigslist.

Keep it simple. Always meet inside a Tim Hortons, or a mall. I have gone once to a person's home and it was a weird episode. Never again.

Glad to hear your friend is OK.

screature
Aug 25th, 2009, 01:24 PM
Some people are just animals... I hope they get these guys and throw the book at them for robbery, assault and with a broken back involved sounds like they could even go for attempted murder. :mad:

EvanPitts
Aug 25th, 2009, 01:25 PM
^^^
This is Canada - the only punishment is the wait for a trial date...

i-rui
Aug 25th, 2009, 01:37 PM
have the police released any composite sketches or descriptions?

I've used craigslist a lot over the past few years. i've run into a few scammers and flakes, but never anything violent.

Max
Aug 25th, 2009, 02:24 PM
I've done dozens of deals via Craigslist - mostly buying and selling guitars and other musical instruments. Depending on my reading of a correspondent, I'll either meet them on their turf, in a busy public place or, if I'm confident, at my own house. So far nothing untoward has ever went down.

Gotta use your head in these situations.

Coincidentally, there's a great article (http://www.wired.com/entertainment/theweb/magazine/17-09/ff_craigslist) on the uncanny success of Craigslist... a neat read.

MazterCBlazter
Aug 25th, 2009, 02:39 PM
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screature
Aug 25th, 2009, 02:41 PM
I've done dozens of deals via Craigslist - mostly buying and selling guitars and other musical instruments. Depending on my reading of a correspondent, I'll either meet them on their turf, in a busy public place or, if I'm confident, at my own house. So far nothing untoward has ever went down.

Gotta use your head in these situations.

Coincidentally, there's a great article (http://www.wired.com/entertainment/theweb/magazine/17-09/ff_craigslist) on the uncanny success of Craigslist... a neat read.

My experience is also exactly that Max, albeit mostly with Kijiji and for everything from hi-fi gear to computers and peripherals to cameras and lenses, buying and selling. I've never even had an inkling of a bad experience because I trust my instincts and if something smells fishy or seems wrong, there most likely is and just back away.

krs
Aug 25th, 2009, 02:50 PM
A somewhat related question -

If I buy a Mac on Craigslist or Kijiji, how do I know it's not stolen?

Is there somewhere I can look up serial numbers and find out what the story is on a particular Mac?

MazterCBlazter
Aug 25th, 2009, 02:54 PM
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rgray
Aug 25th, 2009, 02:57 PM
If I buy a Mac on Craigslist or Kijiji, how do I know it's not stolen??

You don't!!!

I think in that context a much wiser approach is to ASSUME it is stolen until proven otherwise - bill of sale, ID, etc.

Max
Aug 25th, 2009, 02:58 PM
Hey, Screature... yeah, I've done stuff via Kijiji too... feels the same as CL, really. Buying and selling gear via these routes, you really have to sniff out the situation. If a fellow is acting dodgy, whether it's via email or phone, I've found it's better to back off and move on... in my case, if an instrument is going for too little money, it's usually either hot or it's been damaged - If it's hot, or I even suspect it is, I just don't bother. Bad karma and all that... and if it's damaged, like a neck snap or a bad crack running through the body, that sort of thing, then they ought to come out and tell you so in the body of the original ad. It's also a red flag if someone refuses to send pix of the item in question - or gives some lame excuses for not being able to do so.

Anyway, like I said, use yer noggin. I was in a downtown Tim Hortons during the lunch hour two summers, meeting a guy for a trade. I asked to meet him there because I couldn't get a read on the fellow via emails and I just felt better meeting in a public place. My fears were, as it turned out, premature. It was a good transaction and the guy was a nice young fellow. I watched him walk in through the same door I had just used, minutes before. Both of us lugging these big guitar cases. No problem finding each other, that's for sure. Proceed to sit down and strum the guitars, checking that all is good. No one looked up or took notice of anything unusual. Shake hands and say goodbye, hope you enjoy it. Never saw him again. It was pure Craigslist.

Max
Aug 25th, 2009, 03:00 PM
You don't!!!

I think in that context a much wiser approach is to ASSUME it is stolen until proven otherwise - bill of sale, ID, etc.

Agreed. I also document things like serial numbers and, when possible, look them up in various online registries to determine whether a seller is properly representing the goods in question.

knightwrangler
Aug 25th, 2009, 04:52 PM
Good friend and client got mugged trying to buy a MacBook Air off of Kiji.


MacDoc:

I responded to a posting on Kijiji for a Macbook Air more than a week ago and I'm wondering if this is the same ad.The price point was to good to be true, but being curious I emailed this person to find out more information. We ended up exchanging a few emails but as I asked more questions the more this person got elusive in his/her answers and on meeting. When he/she didn't leave a contact number or address or even meet me at place of my choosing then I knew it was a scam and I reported it to Kijiji.

Can you ask your friend/client if he remembers the person's email?

This poster had several ads running on Kijiji's website. Hope your friend is OK and on the mend.

bsenka
Aug 25th, 2009, 07:55 PM
As soon as ebay came around, I never went back. It's not perfect either, but at least I can avoid the weirdness/potential dangers of local pickup. It always makes me cringe when I see an ad anywhere that specifies "local pickup only". That is always a huge red flag for me.

MacDoc
Aug 25th, 2009, 08:37 PM
Could be - I'll ask - glad your spidey sense worked.

Max
Aug 25th, 2009, 08:39 PM
Funny. I avoid Ebay like the plague myself. It must be owing to the the kind of stuff I seek. I much prefer to handle the gear myself - to inspect it for flaws, feel its heft and balance, see if I like to play it. You can't bond with a guitar or bass that's just a bunch of pixels on an Ebay seller's site. No matter how well he or she is rated, you're buying blind. With some items that doesn't matter. I have never bought a guitar blind and I'm not likely to. There are too many lemons out there - new or used, it makes no difference. You have to be at least somewhat discerning or you are going to part with a lot of dough and get little in return for it.

And to tell you the truth, I have met some really interesting people via Craigslist... some of them I genuinely like and with whom I now do regular business. These are largely local people who share my passion... and I've never had a bad experience that was due to some ill-intentioned individual out to swindle me, much less beat me to a pulp and snatch my bread. Sometimes I've come out with the worse end of the deal, but that was me being ignorant or naive or not doing my due diligence (i.e. not inspecting for hairline cracks, inspecting the guitar in lousy light, not plugging it in if it was an electric, etc).

I guess your mileage varies.

MazterCBlazter
Aug 25th, 2009, 08:54 PM
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MacDoc
Aug 25th, 2009, 09:50 PM
I furnished the entire house on Carigs and Kiji and had fun - hell - with iKea stuff you hae a huge selection usually at half price.....

Still more technical gear .....seems to be a magnet for scammy behaviour and now seriously criminal in this case.

That said since the perps are occupying other people's places - how do you tell ....in theory you know where the person lives...usually a safety factor for the buyer

If they wanna get you - they usually can....unfortunate reality :( - as mentioned there are some neat people to be met and most transactions are fine..

imachungry
Aug 26th, 2009, 07:47 AM
CL scammers are also tricking unsuspecting johns and beating them senseless, according to the local hooker board TERB. Any opportunity where you're carrying more than a few hundred in cash.

I have found CL to be surreal-ly bad sometimes. You tend to attract people that are seriously impaired in the mental and decorum department. Not all, but too many.

I sell on closed boards like this, where people have a posting and transactional history. I just sold some tires on a car board I frequent because it's like this--people are known entities, relatively speaking. Less signal-to-noise and more to lose.

Max
Aug 26th, 2009, 09:19 AM
Closed boards are cool if what you're buying and selling are mostly mainstream consumer items. If I tried to buy and sell vintage and cool used guitars via Ehmac I sure wouldn't get much business. Even if I widened it to various musician forums, the scope is nowhere near as wide as what you get with CL or Kijiji. I live smack dab in Canada's largest market. I can do a lot of face-to-face meets with local people and as long as I'm reasonably careful things go well.

Different items require different strategies.

imachungry
Aug 26th, 2009, 09:27 AM
Closed boards are cool if what you're buying and selling are mostly mainstream consumer items. If I tried to buy and sell vintage and cool used guitars via Ehmac I sure wouldn't get much business. Even if I widened it to various musician forums, the scope is nowhere near as wide as what you get with CL or Kijiji. I live smack dab in Canada's largest market. I can do a lot of face-to-face meets with local people and as long as I'm reasonably careful things go well.

Different items require different strategies.

Sure, but I think the point I'm making is to screen people more carefully instead of going for the top dollar. I have never been screwed by CL because price is not my first priority--I choose who I want to sell to. If people don't provide names, or some profile I can check in some way, I don't bother with them. When I posted my iphone on CL, I got so many red flags emails it got to be surreal. No names, one word emails, delete!

I agree that with vintage guitars you're going to have more problems ;)

Max
Aug 26th, 2009, 09:43 AM
Yeah, agreed on your point re: screening. I try to form my impressions over multiple emails and/or phone calls. If someone appears to be having difficulty offering personal details or otherwise comes across sketchy about the wares they have to sell (or act the same way in attempting to buy something of mine), I just drop it all and politely sign off. See ya!

Not saying I can't be screwed. But if you go in with your faculties intact and you know of the potential pitfalls, that's pretty decent insulation.

MazterCBlazter
Aug 26th, 2009, 11:22 AM
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screature
Aug 26th, 2009, 11:45 AM
...Those characters must be a huge embarrassment to their community.

Why? If they were a bunch of tattooed hoodlum white guys they wouldn't be an embarrassment to my "community".

MazterCBlazter
Aug 26th, 2009, 12:02 PM
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esquilo22
Aug 26th, 2009, 12:10 PM
I never had problems with craigslist. But one rule of thumb is: Always meet at a mall or coffee shop.

screature
Aug 26th, 2009, 12:20 PM
Of course they would be. How do you think Surrey got it's horrible reputation? Not all the people there are idiots, but enough to paint the place a terrible color.

Ok MCB, we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I'm not talking about Surrey I am talking about your comment, at any rate I know I'm not going to change your mind on this point, I probably shouldn't have made my post in the first place.

MazterCBlazter
Aug 26th, 2009, 12:46 PM
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MazterCBlazter
Aug 26th, 2009, 12:59 PM
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screature
Aug 26th, 2009, 01:03 PM
If my comment may have come out as racist, I apologize for that. Poor wording on my part. Sorry about that. I think we all dislike hoodlums of every sort.

Or perhaps I am misinterpreting your point altogether?? I'm over-multi-tasking right now and probably screwing a few things up in the process.

Peace.

Yes, that is how it came across to me, and the point I was trying to make, I wouldn't say racist per say though. It is just that the actions of any individual from any race, religion, etc. should not be viewed as a reflection of the greater community that shares that particular commonality. So that community should not be "embarrassed" by those individuals actions as it should not have any bearing on them. (Except where racial profiling is a reality in the broader community and then of course it is of concern to that "minority" community because of the ramifications to the community of the behaviour of those "bad eggs". However, I would still argue that they shouldn't be embarrassed, angry perhaps but not embarrassed.)

At any rate thanks for the apology and no worries.

Mckitrick
Aug 27th, 2009, 05:21 AM
Once I sold a bunch of gym equipment to a bunch of tattooed scary looking East Indian fellows, like part of a gang you see getting arrested on the news. They got thousands of dollars worth of stuff in mint condition for a few hundred bucks. I was moving and was blowing my stuff out cheap for fast sales.

After they came and got it, everything seemed OK, no problems, they were a little strange, but everyone was happy. He said he was a few dollars short, I told them not to worry about it. Gave them extra stuff too.

A couple of days later the guy calls me back and says I ripped him off. He said the stuff I sold him was junk and that I had to give him his money back. He wanted me to drive to Surrey and pick the stuff up. The tone and nature of the conversation degraded. Soon he became quite threatening, was calling several times a day, early morning, late at night.

I made it clear to him, if he wanted his money back, to bring it back to me and he would get a full refund, but I expected absolutely everything back. Then he said he expected me to pay him the full amount he paid, plus the money he shorted me plus a delivery and handling charge etc. From there he went to saying that I had to give him his money back and he would keep everything, or else.

So at this point I told him to go shove it with very strong expletives, and never to call me again. I told him I was moving, never had any trouble dealing with anyone except him. If he wanted any further communication with me, get his "hot shot lawyer that always gets us out of jail" to write a letter of specific demands, and send it to my lawyer and I would follow his recommendations. Then the death threats started, I called the cops, and after the officer hung up after talking to him, I showed him copies of the documentation I had of the items as well as the pictures. Then the guy called back a few minuted later just before the cop left and proceeded to say that it wasn't a real cop and threatened him on the phone. The rest is history.

Those characters must be a huge embarrassment to their community.

Shocking! Having gone to India and having very close ties with Indian folks, this is very disappointing since almost everyone I've dealt with from India is very warm and kind, especially when you're accepting of them and their culture.

It just goes to show you though, the "bad apple" analogy really does hold water. I'm glad you got the cops involved and they took care of the situation.

knightwrangler
Aug 27th, 2009, 10:38 AM
Shocking! Having gone to India and having very close ties with Indian folks, this is very disappointing since almost everyone I've dealt with from India is very warm and kind, especially when you're accepting of them and their culture.


I have to agree with you, although I have found through my experience in selling to these people that there can be a culture clash which can form some mis-communication and can come across the wrong way-to the point that it can become difficult to do a proper transaction.

HowEver
Aug 27th, 2009, 10:54 AM
Closed boards are cool if what you're buying and selling are mostly mainstream consumer items. If I tried to buy and sell vintage and cool used guitars via Ehmac I sure wouldn't get much business. Even if I widened it to various musician forums, the scope is nowhere near as wide as what you get with CL or Kijiji. I live smack dab in Canada's largest market. I can do a lot of face-to-face meets with local people and as long as I'm reasonably careful things go well.

Different items require different strategies.

Vintage and cool guitars? What do you have?

Griz
Aug 27th, 2009, 11:44 AM
Hmmm....

Never considered that before since most of my life, I felt I was always the guy to be afraid of for the most part, it never even dawned on me to worry that much about buying at someone's home.

As I get older and less...um...scary/threatening? Perhaps I should be more careful!

Good point!


What movie was that: "...you all don't get it do you? I'm not locked up in here [prison] with you, you're all locked up in here with me!"

Max
Aug 27th, 2009, 12:21 PM
However: will PM you, man.

bsenka
Aug 27th, 2009, 12:22 PM
What movie was that: "...you all don't get it do you? I'm not locked up in here [prison] with you, you're all locked up in here with me!"

Watchmen!! :)

MacDoc
Sep 1st, 2009, 12:48 PM
My friend said he went in for a lineup and identified the guy and they caught him.

:clap:

Griz
Sep 1st, 2009, 01:20 PM
My friend said he went in for a lineup and identified the guy and they caught him.

:clap:

Lineups suck. Their accuracy is ****-poor for identifying criminals. Much like polygraph, the whole thing is essentially a charade. If you doubt either of these claims, do some research.

Glad to hear it worked for your friend though. Justice can make your whole year when it occurs. Seriously, it does work sometimes ...just not often enough to warrant it as a standard tool ...sadly.

MacDoc
Sep 1st, 2009, 07:39 PM
He was nose to nose for a good while - no mistake here.
I'm told the rest of the gang may go down.

knightwrangler
Sep 1st, 2009, 08:14 PM
MacDoc:

Were you able to find out this party's alias on Kijij??

Adrian.
Sep 1st, 2009, 08:37 PM
I just got some AppleCare on eBay. I was very apprehensive. However, the transaction went well and Apple accepted my serial number.

I am a happy camper. I buy bikes/bike parts off of Pinkbike.com and sell/buy some stuff here on ehmac. I don't think I will ever venture to Kijiji/Craiglist.

HowEver
Sep 1st, 2009, 08:52 PM
I just got some AppleCare on eBay. I was very apprehensive. However, the transaction went well and Apple accepted my serial number.

I am a happy camper. I buy bikes/bike parts off of Pinkbike.com and sell/buy some stuff here on ehmac. I don't think I will ever venture to Kijiji/Craiglist.

Sorry, but who gains when Craigslist and kijiji stories get moribund and frightening?

Regular stores, local dealers, big chains.

You have to be really careful dealing with strangers and should be very cautious, check them out first, don't deal with the anonymous. Yes, the world is full of criminals. Do not set yourself up to be ripped off. Deal on ehMac, for example, if at all possible. But there are bargains and deals from time to time on Craigslist/kijiji and a lot of decent people out there.

stinand
Sep 1st, 2009, 10:29 PM
He was nose to nose for a good while - no mistake here.
I'm told the rest of the gang may go down.

I'm David's " friend" the actual guy that got mugged.

Let me cover a couple of things that make this scary . I am super careful having worked in London areas equivalent to Harlem where I was one of the few white guys around. So I have been around the block.

The computer was a fair price
The guys email etc. checked out
The building was a respectable building.
The woman who I spoke to sounded respectable with a small child running around in the background.
I stripped myself of all jewelry wallet money etc prior to going up.

These guys have nothing to sell and are there for the money that the know you will have. They have been known to nab somebody in the parking lot of a Tim Horton's or do a deal and then take you for a ride to your bank machine..

Sorry guys there is no easy way to avoid these new brand of scum :)

stinand
Sep 2nd, 2009, 08:02 PM
The end of the story. The two scum buckets where arrested both with records. They had committed multiple robberies . Guess what? They where young offenders one of them is already out and the cops figure they may get a years probation..

My phone was sold and is one it's way to China.

One of them is still suffering some injuries and has trouble walking and mentioned to the cop that he would like to charge me ...

Hail the Canadian justice system..

Bottom line now they have found this method of robbery works they will just get better and better at it ... Coming soon to neighbourhood near you :mad:

MacDoc
Sep 2nd, 2009, 08:07 PM
When Andy sez he's been around the block u gotta believe him..

http://3.media.tumblr.com/ryUWWkDgRr0hdps5574E8uZio1_400.jpg ;)

take away - don't mess with an old salt :D

SINC
Sep 2nd, 2009, 08:59 PM
He's so ugly, he's cute!