: Should Apple and Rogers give up on cheap Canadians with the iPhone?


MacGYVER
Aug 26th, 2008, 10:44 PM
I never thought that such a device from Apple would create so many problems right from the very beginning.

So many Canadians wanted the iPhone to come to Canada via a wireless carrier. My question is why? Why even bother? Look at this place and the hundreds of posts with regards to price, cost, blocking data, wanting to buy the iPhone but not pay for the device or its uses etc... I now see why RIM went after the Enterprise sector first before going main stream and developing for consumers. They knew that the market was not ready for the general consumer with a budget of a teenager.

Lets look at RIM and its Blackberry devices in the beginning. The Blackberry was a device for push E-mail for the corporate world as its main function, along with a few other things. If you wanted a Blackberry, you had to pay for the service, no question asked. Otherwise, you would have had a paperweight ;) . Then RIM designed the Blackberry to be a cell phone with push E-mail for the corporate world along with a few other things. RIM still pushed forward to the enterprise world up until I would say maybe 2 years ago. All of a sudden, younger people were buying RIM devices to use as a cell phone, internet device, E-mail etc... RIM saw this and developed newer Blackberry's for these consumers.

Apple wanted to get into this market as well, the all in one device. What they didn't count on, were those people who were PAY AS YOU GO customers who want to get their feet wet, but not pay anything for it by using an iPhone. I'm sorry, but you are not the market for this phone. You are obviously on PAY AS YOU GO, due to either:

1. You don't have the need to talk too much
2. You definitely DO NOT USE data, surf the web, send E-mail or chat on your phone
3. Your income or budget doesn't allow you to spend any more then PAY AS YOU GO customer rates

How many RIM customers have purchased a Blackberry in the past and the first thing they did was, call up the wireless carrier and tried to cancel the push E-mail service and all other data service? Do you see how that wouldn't happen as that's what the device was built for? :lmao:

The point is, there are far too many people, that want an iPhone, but don't quite understand if they actually fit into the market of owning one.

The iPhone was made for the purpose of using data over 3G, Edge and Wifi. That's what it was designed to do right from the beginning. Just like RIM's devices were designed for data as well. Although for some reason, I can't find too many articles about RIM customers trying to CANCEL their data plans and just use the device without data? Maybe someone here can find a few articles for me?

Is the iPhone for you? Do you want:

1. To receive and send E-mail whenever you want? How about push E-mail?

2. To surf the internet for information using Safari at any given time?

3. To use Google Maps and GPS?

4. To use instant messenger apps to chat back and forth?

5. To receive and make phone calls?

6. To do business in an enterprise environment?

7. To have fun with an all in one mobile device?

If you answered YES to one of the above, then you should pay for the service. Why? It costs money to provide the data for the above services.

Apple did not design the iPhone to run on Wifi as its main source of data transfer. In fact, I look at it as an added bonus for most users.

This sort of device is new to us Canadians, It is new to Rogers. Rogers reps are still all over the board trying to deal with situations. We don't live in a perfect world, mistakes happen and at the end of the day, majority of them get fixed.

I think the average Canadian consumer needs to stop and think first, if they actually NEED an iPhone, or is it that they WANT an iPhone instead. If it is because they want an iPhone, then they are probably not the targeted market that Apple or Rogers sees spending what it costs for the technology.

I am constantly coming across posts from Canadians who are on a PAY AS YOU GO phone spending maybe $10 a month in total. Now they want to spend the money to get the iPhone, but still want to PAY $10/month for voice only and NO DATA. Why would anyone do this? You are not the target audience. It's obvious by your needs to begin with. It's kind of like the same person owning a K-Car and walking into a Ferrari dealership and asking if they could pay the same for the Ferrari as they paid for their K-Car because they WANT a Ferrari.

I think Rogers should do what they did with their Blackberry's and make it mandatory that you PAY for a data plan when getting an Apple iPhone. This would fix a lot of headaches, not just for the consumer but also for Rogers. I don't recall hearing about thousands of pissed off Canadian consumers when RIM implemented that method with the carriers years ago and still does today.

I want to see positive threads about the iPhone in this community, but all I keep reading about is a lot of negative topics. Who knew the iPhone would create such negative response from Canadians eh? :confused:

Adrian.
Aug 26th, 2008, 10:59 PM
I do agree with you in many ways. The difference is though that the iPhone is an iPod with a phone. For a lot of people, including me!, that is all I want. I have my stupid work blackberry attatched to my hip and I am always in downtown Toronto or airports where there is constantly wifi so I do not need anything else really.

The difference between a blackberry and an iPhone is that a blackberry is for 100% designed for business. It works very well and very well supported with microsoft exchange servers but is sort of a pain to get the push to go with gmail or hotmail or whatever.

I could go on but someone under 20 with a blackberry looks like an idiot. An iPhone not so much. They are just trying to minimalize by having the phone and the iPod in one. It works. Not everyone wants to be able to locate the nearest cheese burger joint at any given time you know....

satchmo
Aug 26th, 2008, 11:14 PM
Quite a rant...but flawed.

You do not have any right in suggesting what people should or need to do with their iPhone. If they want to use it as an internet device, fine. If they want to use it strictly as a phone, it their choice.

Ever wonder why it's called an iPHONE? Why do all iPhone ads end with someone answering a call? Because it's a phone.

Canadians, by and large are more frugal and sensible with their money. But that's probably due to the lack of choice and competition in the cell phone arena. From high internet rates, to bogus activation fees and long 3 year contracts, can you blame us?

Adrian.
Aug 26th, 2008, 11:16 PM
Honestly it is not even the price that scares me away from the iPhone it is the 3 year contract with Rogers. Why would I do that when I can walk over to Koodo and never sign a contract?

Andrew Pratt
Aug 26th, 2008, 11:16 PM
Actually you can use a BlackBerry without data...at least with some carriers. The one i'm on has a $15 unlimited email plan which works great for me as data isn't useful to me on my Pearl as the screen's too small to use as a web browser and the GPS isn't enabled for GoogleMaps. That said the day my contract expires I'm getting an iPhone and a 6Gig data plan :heybaby:

Malco
Aug 26th, 2008, 11:19 PM
I glad you were part of the obviously narrow minded committee that decided the appropriate uses of an iPhone.

Just like the guy at Carbon that told my friend a Time Capsule was not be used as a wireless network drive for songs. It is to be used for Time Machine backups.

Personal computers were not made to do desktop publishing, movie editing or audio engineering. The internet was not created for viewing motion pictures or stills, buying and selling, voice, teleconferencing, games or pouring a virtual beer down your throat.

Tech always has more uses beyond what was envisioned.

Personally I usually turn Wi-fi off as either I'm a noob or the phone/apps are poorly designed.

I didn't need an iPhone, I didn't really want an iPhone.
I probably should have bought an Instinct and still had the ability to have my Bell landline no answer transfer to my cell and then to my landline voice mail but I know this platform is a game changer.

I need to be an insider for business reasons.

I'm already bored with it, sometimes frustrated with it, but I'll keep using it. My geek non iPhone owning friends are already giving me the same looks and sighs that I received when I first got a cell phone decades ago. The friends back then pooh poohed the idea they would ever get a cell and rejected my declaration that one day almost everyone would have a cell.

I've only made two calls from it.
I don't even know my temp number yet.

MomentsofSanity
Aug 26th, 2008, 11:19 PM
That said the day my contract expires I'm getting an iPhone and a 6Gig data plan :heybaby:

Hope either your contract is up by the end of this month or Rogers chooses to extend the 6GB promo. The $100 non-promotional price isn't all that attractive. Here's hoping they come up with some different pricing once September rolls around.

kloan
Aug 26th, 2008, 11:25 PM
Well, a lot of the negative posts are justified.

Aside from people complaining about bogus bill fees, etc.. there are legitimate issues, and they're not just coming from us Canadians.

- Build quality
- defective 3G (I had one, so yes it is real)
- super buggy OS

These are Apple's problems, not ours. It has nothing to do with us being cheap, or picky, or whatever... we waited for the iPhone, it got here, and it brought a whole range of problems with it.

Admittedly, my latest one is the best of the batch I've had, but the OS still needs a lot of work. And quality control issues persist.

bmovie
Aug 26th, 2008, 11:27 PM
wow, way to miss one of the most obvious reasons for buying an iPhone:

Phone + iPod = one device to carry around.

Granted it also does a lot more, movie viewer, game play, email, web surfing (whether 3G or wifi) and photo album viewer.

You DONT need a data plan! It's more of a I WANT a data plan, because I need to surf NOW!

I have this phone without a data plan and my data turned off from Rogers, and I'm very happy with my set up. I'm sure a lot of people feel the same as I do.

HowEver
Aug 26th, 2008, 11:40 PM
Excellent post.

I glad you were part of the obviously narrow minded committee that decided the appropriate uses of an iPhone.

Just like the guy at Carbon that told my friend a Time Capsule was not be used as a wireless network drive for songs. It is to be used for Time Machine backups.

Personal computers were not made to do desktop publishing, movie editing or audio engineering. The internet was not created for viewing motion pictures or stills, buying and selling, voice, teleconferencing, games or pouring a virtual beer down your throat.

Tech always has more uses beyond what was envisioned.

Personally I usually turn Wi-fi off as either I'm a noob or the phone/apps are poorly designed.

I didn't need an iPhone, I didn't really want an iPhone.
I probably should have bought an Instinct and still had the ability to have my Bell landline no answer transfer to my cell and then to my landline voice mail but I know this platform is a game changer.

I need to be an insider for business reasons.

I'm already bored with it, sometimes frustrated with it, but I'll keep using it. My geek non iPhone owning friends are already giving me the same looks and sighs that I received when I first got a cell phone decades ago. The friends back then pooh poohed the idea they would ever get a cell and rejected my declaration that one day almost everyone would have a cell.

I've only made two calls from it.
I don't even know my temp number yet.

jabberjamie
Aug 26th, 2008, 11:45 PM
I think that limiting the market to enterprise users and pay-as-you-go users is likely not an accurate view of the overall marketplace since they would tend to be either end of the potential spectrum.

The key word is potential. If people want an iPhone, whether you think their reasons are valid or not, that desire will influence the market. 5 years ago iPods were close to $500, now look at their prices and range. This pent-up demand for iPhones isn't likely to subside soon. Even the lowly pay-as-you-go users who want an iPhone desire to not only talk occasionally, but surf, check email, get directions, and god forbid, have fun on a device.

Those young people may not have the money right now, but they're savvy enough to know what they want, whether it's a great user experience, or just to be cool, and are the only demographic that is sure to have significant income gains in their near future.

zc11
Aug 26th, 2008, 11:48 PM
Valid points here from both sides. A few comments:

I would have guessed that the target demographic for the iPhone was "anyone who can afford to buy it."

As has already been mentioned, many people are attracted to the fact that the iPhone is one device that can replace several other devices and, that in theory and in practice, can work just fine without data. Many people are carrying iPods for music, a cellular phone for phone service, and a PDA for calendar, contacts, some small apps, etc. This device combines all of those conveniently. Those not using data with the phone are certainly not using it to its full potential, but what devices do we use to their full potential, anyway? I'm sure my toaster could handle (and severely burn) many more slices of bread than it sees on a daily basis, and that my refrigerator can get much colder than I've set it. In fact, although my refrigerator has a water dispenser, I never actually use it. These are silly examples, but the point is that there is no rule, for any device, that you must use all of its capabilities rather than just those that you actually want/need. If you can buy it, you can have it. How you use it is up to you.

Porsche won't refuse to sell you a 911 turbo when they find out that you're not going to take it to the track. They care about whether or not you have the money to buy the car, not whether or not you have the money or will to insure, fuel, race or fix it.

Since the iPhone is capable of running perfectly fine without data, Rogers & Fido should have been prepared for people to want the phone without data. This is not to say that they weren't prepared, however. It's quite possible that they intended for the first "round" of sales to be to those wanting data and contracts, and for future "rounds" to include non-data and non-contract sales. This is supported, somewhat, by their "iphone" plans, which all included data. One could also speculate that their sales plan might have changed somewhere along the line, just as the pricing for the data plan changed from their initial offering of $100 to the limited time $30 promotional price and it became clear that you could actually combine any voice plan with the iPhone.

Eric0
Aug 27th, 2008, 12:34 AM
It's a tough call. Great points on both sides. Having both a Blackberry and a Touch it was interesting to see the views.

However, I don't really see the price as consumers being cheap so much as disparity between countries. If everyone paid $60 for 400MB of data then that would be the price. But when your neighbors to the south pay less than half that for unlimited data along with the greater part of the world, you begin asking questions.

The price for Blackberries have dropped significantly in the past few years. Now you can get unlimited email for as low as $15/month. Try doing that even 2 years ago when it was $25 for 500KB. You bet every big company is trying to renegotiate.

Adrian.
Aug 27th, 2008, 12:40 AM
It's a tough call. Great points on both sides. Having both a Blackberry and a Touch it was interesting to see the views.

However, I don't really see the price as consumers being cheap so much as disparity between countries. If everyone paid $60 for 400MB of data then that would be the price. But when your neighbors to the south pay less than half that for unlimited data along with the greater part of the world, you begin asking questions.

The price for Blackberries have dropped significantly in the past few years. Now you can get unlimited email for as low as $15/month. Try doing that even 2 years ago when it was $25 for 500KB. You bet every big company is trying to renegotiate.

There is a political term for the the sort of comparison people are making between the us and canada. It is called "relative deprivation", only, its intended use was to measure much graver situations than iPhone data rates. :lmao:

I am just going to wait a year and see what happens. I am sure contracts will be reduced to the normal 1-3 years and all that jazz!


ps,

I was on the toronto metro today and saw a guy get his iPhone stolen right out of his hands. Oh Toronto.

JumboJones
Aug 27th, 2008, 12:51 AM
Because I want to look cool, but can't afford to be at the top of the technological food chain. Buy an iPod touch and get a regular phone and get over yourselves. Otherwise, pay the $199 and $60+ per month for the next 3 years and stop complaining.

kloan
Aug 27th, 2008, 12:56 AM
I was on the toronto metro today and saw a guy get his iPhone stolen right out of his hands. Oh Toronto.

Did he do anything about it or just stand there like a deer caught in the headlights?

chas_m
Aug 27th, 2008, 01:03 AM
The three-year contract is the ONLY thing stopping me from getting a new iPhone (I already have my jailbroken original from the states).

In my present situation, I have wifi available to me nearly everywhere I go, so having the 3G service hasn't really been a consideration. I do agree with those people who say an iPhone without data is like a man without a penis. :)

When Rogers gets a) a two-year contract option and/or b) reasonable data rates (not counting the "special sale"), I'll definitely look at upgrading, till then I love my original iPhone.

milhaus
Aug 27th, 2008, 01:04 AM
Holier than thou is getting old. Those who COMPLAIN about other people's complaining are dumber than a bucket of rocks.

What would that make those who complain about people complaining about other people's complaining? Dumber than a boulder? Pebbles? Note: this is not a complaint, just a question.

kloan
Aug 27th, 2008, 01:08 AM
The iPhone is a phone with an iPod in it. The iPod Touch is the freaking iPod! If you do you NOT WANT THE DATA, get the freaking Touch!
Perhaps if people had KNOWN the iPod touch in fact had a phone in it, maybe they would have?!

Your post makes no sense.:confused: Phone /= Data

When I owned a 1st gen iPhone, I didn't use data with it because there wasn't any.. nothing affordable anyway.

I was perfectly content. I still had wifi, the iPod features, could watch videos, install software, play games. Yep, just about everything the 3G can do, minus data usage, which is basically a luxury, not a necessity.

zc11
Aug 27th, 2008, 01:25 AM
So back on topic:

Group A -- iPhone shouldn't be sold without data contracts. Those who can't afford it shouldn't complain

Group B -- iPhone still perfectly usable without data and should be offered as such

Group C -- Data vs no data is not the issue. The issue is that the plans are overpriced

Group D -- What was the question, again?

Discuss

zc11
Aug 27th, 2008, 01:29 AM
Data was the big selling point for me with the iPhone. I was very impressed by the browsing ability, email, GPS, apps, etc. The phone functionality is actually what I use least. With Simplify Media and all of the other streaming apps, the 6GB limit doesn't seem so astronomically high, anymore.

Vexel
Aug 27th, 2008, 01:46 AM
I've deleted posts accordingly. Please stay on topic folks. Enough of the banter.

RedLightning
Aug 27th, 2008, 02:25 AM
I appreciate this message...

I was a long time blackberry user w/phone bills averging $400/month..hearing people whine about $7.00 of data charges drives me crazy...to the point that I rarely come to this forum anymore.

-s

zc11
Aug 27th, 2008, 02:47 AM
Agreed that there is *a lot* of complaining on this forum...and questions about plans...seemingly to no end. I stopped being annoyed by that sort of thing, though. It's easy enough to sift through and just read what actually interests you. I'm betting that the average Blackberry user is older (and more affluent) than the average iPhone user. This forum is likely a reflection of that reality. Yeah, it's not much of a bet. That said, though, the fact that you can afford $400/month phone bills doesn't make anyone else's complaint about $60/month plans any less valid.

I can't honestly say that I buy the argument that the iPhone was targeted at the relatively affluent, who can pay $60+ per month. It seems that a lot of the features (iPod, movies/videos, ringtones, games, etc) grew from the iPod line which, arguably, was targeting younger audiences. It's only natural that a phone with all of the same features as the iPods would be attractive to the same audience. It also follows that the members of said audience would want to continue to pay the same amount that they already pay on their other voice plans (contracts, pay as you go, etc.).

Like I said earlier, the attraction for me is the data. I can afford to pay for the iPhone, the data plan and a voice plan, so I do. That doesn't, however, make me any less sympathetic to others' complaints. As an example, I don't think it's unreasonable for a teenager to expect that this device, in many ways so similar to his iPod Touch, will be priced such that he can afford to upgrade from his iPod Touch + cellular phone to this all-in-one device. The Blackberry was targeted at business users. The iPhone really isn't in the same boat, or derived from the same type of thought process (in my opinion). It's more a descendant of fun/play device heritage (iPod) rather than the business/corporate communications heritage (original Blackberry).

smashedbanana
Aug 27th, 2008, 05:10 AM
To say that blackberry was perfect is and was a bit of a stretch. They were the groundbreakers, and those guys always have it the worst. Of course they reap the highest rewards for a period of time.

I am a blackberry user and have been since the black and white version. I have had many issues, and I won't get into them here. The difference though was blackberry was the only game in town for a long time. So much so that those of us that got on board actually changed the way we worked to suite the blackberry as much as it changed how we could work.


Ed

fjnmusic
Aug 27th, 2008, 07:12 AM
If Rogers rates for data were $20 a month for unlimited (5GB really) data and a 2 year contract like in the US, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. Blocking data is one of the few things people can do to offset Rogers price gouging. If you're paying $400 a month for a glorified cellphone, you are not the most frugal of individuals, IMHO.

Z06jerry
Aug 27th, 2008, 08:18 AM
If Rogers rates for data were $20 a month for unlimited (5GB really) data and a 2 year contract like in the US, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. Blocking data is one of the few things people can do to offset Rogers price gouging. If you're paying $400 a month for a glorified cellphone, you are not the most frugal of individuals, IMHO.

You forgot to mention that US voice plans are more reasonable too. My US friends do not pay SAF, have included Nationwide LD, pay less tax, no 911 fee, etc. Overall they pay much less and get a lot more value for the cellphone dollar.

And most BlackBerry users that I know have their bills paid by their employer or are claiming them as a business expense, therefor pre-tax dollars (which in Canada can cut the real cost by about 50%), whereas I think a lot of iPhone owners are paying with after-tax dollars, ...this makes a huge difference

CaptainCode
Aug 27th, 2008, 08:41 AM
I think the whole original argument is pretty weak. The target market is anyone that will buy it. In fact they want more consumers to buy it because they made the initial cost of ownership lower than it was before. The iPhone does not need data but it's nice to have it.

I think most people were mad because they're sick of Rogers' monopoly on GSM and the whole state of the cell phone market here in Canada. We do pay more than the USA and have less competition. I think many people thought that might change with the iPhone but I didn't really think that it would.

Whether you need a data plan has nothing to do with what the iPhone was designed for in your opinion. Needing a data plan is only based on what you as an individual use the device for. If you are around wifi all day at work and at home then it's stupid to pay $30/month if you barely use it.

Z06jerry
Aug 27th, 2008, 08:48 AM
Needing a data plan is only based on what you as an individual use the device for. If you are around wifi all day at work and at home then it's stupid to pay $30/month if you barely use it.

Well said. :clap: :clap:

G-Mo
Aug 27th, 2008, 09:19 AM
If Rogers rates for data were $20 a month for unlimited (5GB really) data and a 2 year contract like in the US, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. Blocking data is one of the few things people can do to offset Rogers price gouging. If you're paying $400 a month for a glorified cellphone, you are not the most frugal of individuals, IMHO.

Data rates for the US "unlimited" (5GB softcap) are now $30/month, not $20, so, with the current special pricing offer, Rogers is offering a better deal than AT&T (at least for data!)...

G-Mo
Aug 27th, 2008, 09:20 AM
I was on the toronto metro today and saw a guy get his iPhone stolen right out of his hands. Oh Toronto.

Toronto doesn't have a metro... we have a subway?!

bmovie
Aug 27th, 2008, 09:31 AM
Data rates for the US "unlimited" (5GB softcap) are now $30/month, not $20, so, with the current special pricing offer, Rogers is offering a better deal than AT&T (at least for data!)...

but that's just that, a SPECIAL OFFER in September anyone who orders an iPhone is out of luck at this pricing if they want a data plan.

Over all data plans here are over priced, is what everyone is complaining about.

Vexel
Aug 27th, 2008, 10:09 AM
I think we're getting caught up in something we don't have a very good idea about yet. Rogers might get very competitive with their pricing because they see the real demand for the iPhone. It was designed for "the rest of us."

Personally, I think you're really missing out on one of the coolest features of the iPhone if you don't have a data plan, but again, I'm sure it's still very useful without one.

Think of it like this. We're paying to have our Mac Life in our pockets. I for one am willing to spend a little extra for that luxury. That's all it is, a luxury.

Our market is a lot different here in. Canada than it is in the US. We have a lot less people here and therefore Rogers has to compensate for that with competitive pricing. As with all things, they will change. But, I really don't think we're getting shafted by them. Their prices are based on what the market is willing to pay. Trust me, there's no shortage of Canadians willing to pay the current prices for the iPhone.

Cheers,

Vex

Z06jerry
Aug 27th, 2008, 10:23 AM
Personally, I think you're really missing out on one of the coolest features of the iPhone if you don't have a data plan, but again, I'm sure it's still very useful without one. Vex

Yes it is.

Trust me, there's no shortage of Canadians willing to pay the current prices for the iPhone.

At approx $100 less than an iPod Touch, you'd be crazy not to get an iPhone if you're a cell phone user who is eligible or in need of a hardware upgrade.

psxp
Aug 27th, 2008, 10:26 AM
I think your post was excellence.

You covered many good points.

satchmo
Aug 27th, 2008, 11:03 AM
The iphone was meant to be used and enjoyed (your wife/gf comes with a vagina, should we give her the option of shutting that part of her down too? Would she still be all of what she was born to be ? Same thing for the iphone, don't sew up its vagina) If the average person can't afford the data rape then the data rape should be abolished. Plans should always be whatever you choose them to be from the current selection or from your grandfathered plans. PERIOD.

Worse analogy ever. Period. :rolleyes:

Bottom line, it's about choice. For some, the choice may be dictated by their budget. Others who can afford it may simply choose not to have a data plan, because of a lack of need.

However, I do think the complaints over costs and the desire to have an iPhone show how passionate folks here are about Apple products.

zc11
Aug 27th, 2008, 11:09 AM
Comparing our rates to the US isn't all that reasonable, either. They have 10 times the population that we do, and probably 10 times the wireless carriers (for the time-being). They tend to have more selection than we do in most consumer segments and, accordingly, more competition within those segments. It's not really surprising, then, that American prices are often quite markedly lower than Canadian prices. It's annoying, sure, but not surprising.

KMPhotos
Aug 27th, 2008, 12:24 PM
I prefer to call out the Rogers brown nosers/propaganda pushers. They are the real problem.

By the way, where was your wisedom when people started doing it to me first ? ... right... brown...

Actaully, the first time I responded to one of your posts was to try to explain to you why some people weren't listening to you. You made all these claims as acts and refused to answer any questions or provide proof to people.

AND - I even posted a link that sort of supported you that Rogers, and all GSM providers around the world may be to blames for dropped calls and problems with the iPhone.

So you go one believing what you will. It's fine.

JumboJones
Aug 27th, 2008, 12:43 PM
Glad to see the iPhone has brought only the best and brightest to this forum. :rolleyes:

rondini
Aug 27th, 2008, 12:54 PM
Attention Forum Admins:

Cleanup on Aisle 3!

nick24
Aug 27th, 2008, 01:09 PM
Attention admins - dslitedstt needs some time to work up more rage and hatred to all things Rogers. May I suggest some time away from this forum as a suitable way to help him with his quest?

machael
Aug 27th, 2008, 01:23 PM
just ban him already so he can be the martyr he set out to be.

oh cruel and un-just world.

:baby:

twolf3232
Aug 27th, 2008, 02:01 PM
Stop feeding the troll, everyone.

In those crazy days leading up to July 11, even though confusion reigned, opinions were strong and disagreements were common, as a collective we managed to stay polite and respectful.

A variety of opinions is what can make internet message boards fun, but no one wins if we devolve into insults, yelling and mysonginy.

Is there an "ignore" feature here?

kloan
Aug 27th, 2008, 02:06 PM
Is there an "ignore" feature here?

There is.. :)

It's in 'User CP'.

Rounder
Aug 27th, 2008, 02:13 PM
I never thought that such a device from Apple would create so many problems right from the very beginning.

So many Canadians wanted the iPhone to come to Canada via a wireless carrier. My question is why? Why even bother? Look at this place and the hundreds of posts with regards to price, cost, blocking data, wanting to buy the iPhone but not pay for the device or its uses etc... I now see why RIM went after the Enterprise sector first before going main stream and developing for consumers. They knew that the market was not ready for the general consumer with a budget of a teenager.

Lets look at RIM and its Blackberry devices in the beginning. The Blackberry was a device for push E-mail for the corporate world as its main function, along with a few other things. If you wanted a Blackberry, you had to pay for the service, no question asked. Otherwise, you would have had a paperweight ;) . Then RIM designed the Blackberry to be a cell phone with push E-mail for the corporate world along with a few other things. RIM still pushed forward to the enterprise world up until I would say maybe 2 years ago. All of a sudden, younger people were buying RIM devices to use as a cell phone, internet device, E-mail etc... RIM saw this and developed newer Blackberry's for these consumers.

Apple wanted to get into this market as well, the all in one device. What they didn't count on, were those people who were PAY AS YOU GO customers who want to get their feet wet, but not pay anything for it by using an iPhone. I'm sorry, but you are not the market for this phone. You are obviously on PAY AS YOU GO, due to either:

1. You don't have the need to talk too much
2. You definitely DO NOT USE data, surf the web, send E-mail or chat on your phone
3. Your income or budget doesn't allow you to spend any more then PAY AS YOU GO customer rates

How many RIM customers have purchased a Blackberry in the past and the first thing they did was, call up the wireless carrier and tried to cancel the push E-mail service and all other data service? Do you see how that wouldn't happen as that's what the device was built for? :lmao:

The point is, there are far too many people, that want an iPhone, but don't quite understand if they actually fit into the market of owning one.

The iPhone was made for the purpose of using data over 3G, Edge and Wifi. That's what it was designed to do right from the beginning. Just like RIM's devices were designed for data as well. Although for some reason, I can't find too many articles about RIM customers trying to CANCEL their data plans and just use the device without data? Maybe someone here can find a few articles for me?

Is the iPhone for you? Do you want:

1. To receive and send E-mail whenever you want? How about push E-mail?

2. To surf the internet for information using Safari at any given time?

3. To use Google Maps and GPS?

4. To use instant messenger apps to chat back and forth?

5. To receive and make phone calls?

6. To do business in an enterprise environment?

7. To have fun with an all in one mobile device?

If you answered YES to one of the above, then you should pay for the service. Why? It costs money to provide the data for the above services.

Apple did not design the iPhone to run on Wifi as its main source of data transfer. In fact, I look at it as an added bonus for most users.

This sort of device is new to us Canadians, It is new to Rogers. Rogers reps are still all over the board trying to deal with situations. We don't live in a perfect world, mistakes happen and at the end of the day, majority of them get fixed.

I think the average Canadian consumer needs to stop and think first, if they actually NEED an iPhone, or is it that they WANT an iPhone instead. If it is because they want an iPhone, then they are probably not the targeted market that Apple or Rogers sees spending what it costs for the technology.

I am constantly coming across posts from Canadians who are on a PAY AS YOU GO phone spending maybe $10 a month in total. Now they want to spend the money to get the iPhone, but still want to PAY $10/month for voice only and NO DATA. Why would anyone do this? You are not the target audience. It's obvious by your needs to begin with. It's kind of like the same person owning a K-Car and walking into a Ferrari dealership and asking if they could pay the same for the Ferrari as they paid for their K-Car because they WANT a Ferrari.

I think Rogers should do what they did with their Blackberry's and make it mandatory that you PAY for a data plan when getting an Apple iPhone. This would fix a lot of headaches, not just for the consumer but also for Rogers. I don't recall hearing about thousands of pissed off Canadian consumers when RIM implemented that method with the carriers years ago and still does today.

I want to see positive threads about the iPhone in this community, but all I keep reading about is a lot of negative topics. Who knew the iPhone would create such negative response from Canadians eh? :confused:

I wholeheartedly agree. But people don't understand this concept, because the iPhone was pushed to consumers who have no idea / intentions of using the iPhone for the purpose that it's meant for. It's quite silly actually. But a lot of people I know just bought it because it's an iPhone. When I bought my iPhone, I had every intention to use it as it's meant to be used. It's a multimedia / web / email / phone. I use pretty much everything available on this phone.

That also brings up the "my battery sucks" issues that many people post about. They don't understand too that surfing and watching videos and calling take up quite a bit of battery, because they are used to cell phones that are strictly cell phones, and they only used it to make calls so it could last 2 - 3 days without charging. Yet they complain the iPhone sucks battery... yeah look at all the features on the phone! If you're using them, then the battery will drain!!

I still firmly believe that the average consumer / cell phone user is just not ready for the iPhone and it's capabilities.

twolf3232
Aug 27th, 2008, 02:40 PM
There is.. :)

It's in 'User CP'.

Thanks much!

For the record, cellular internet is still bleeding edge, and as such, we're paying bleeding edge prices. Our data access prices are not out of line with AT&T (and in many cases, better). The rest of the world is not worth considering since the wireless marketplaces are so radically different in Europe and Asia.

The Instinct and the Bold are going to be seen as equivalents to the iPhone by Joe Consumer, as such, the data offerings from Telus and Bell *will* have an impact on Rogers/Fido rates. That, and the fact that as technology matures, it becomes cheaper will see data rates go down over time. Don't like the rates right now, or can't really afford it? Don't buy. Trust in the market.

I wonder how much of this animosity is related to people's experiences in the CATV and ISP arms of Rogers. I was a Rogers customer for over 10 years in cable and 5 years for internet (I'm not now because Rogers doesn't service QC). I always found them responsive to the few problems I had and generally a good company to do business with. I've never been with their wireless branch because I've never found their offerings appealing to me. I was a Fido customer when they were a new company and have no complaints about them either. Haven't been with them since they got swallowed up. Bell has been a pain in my experience - wireless, home phone and Sympatico. I'll never go back to them.

Adrian.
Aug 27th, 2008, 02:48 PM
We cannot compare our market to the US. Companies have to cover much more area to provide service to less people, there is a tenth of the population and Canadians are much much wealthier than Americans. Period.

I do not like to pay so much more to live in Canada. But what is the other option? Living in the US?:lmao:

Z06jerry
Aug 27th, 2008, 03:47 PM
Canadians are much much wealthier than Americans. Period.


On what do you base this claim?

hayesk
Aug 27th, 2008, 05:00 PM
If Rogers rates for data were $20 a month for unlimited (5GB really) data and a 2 year contract like in the US, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. Blocking data is one of the few things people can do to offset Rogers price gouging. If you're paying $400 a month for a glorified cellphone, you are not the most frugal of individuals, IMHO.

Really? How do you know that the use of $400 didn't generate much more money in business deals, etc.? Businesses use tools based on the return on investment, not on the price alone.

What gets me is that people in this forum actually think they're representative of the general population, or even the Mac using or iPhone using population. No - we are geeks here. Most iPhone and Mac users are not geeks. It's time we realize that.

The fact is Rogers is quite happy with the current iPhone prices because they're selling. Not because people are stupid or uninformed. Because Rogers is selling a product at a price people are willing to pay.

jeepguy
Aug 27th, 2008, 05:04 PM
Whether you need a data plan has nothing to do with what the iPhone was designed for in your opinion. Needing a data plan is only based on what you as an individual use the device for. If you are around wifi all day at work and at home then it's stupid to pay $30/month if you barely use it.

I'm the opposite use lots of data, and use 0 to 10min talk time a month, think they will give me a data only plan for $30 :D

jeepguy
Aug 27th, 2008, 05:20 PM
I still firmly believe that the average consumer / cell phone user is just not ready for the iPhone and it's capabilities.

This makes no sense. People are using it the way it was intended, listening to music, surfing the net, sending emails, taking photos, watching videos, using GPS, running apps,and making phone calls. So whats wrong with wanting more battery capacity, it's an all around true multi-media device. Apple made it the Swiss-Army knife of cell phones and that's exactly what people want.

JumboJones
Aug 27th, 2008, 08:37 PM
This makes no sense. People are using it the way it was intended, listening to music, surfing the net, sending emails, taking photos, watching videos, using GPS, running apps,and making phone calls. So whats wrong with wanting more battery capacity, it's an all around true multi-media device. Apple made it the Swiss-Army knife of cell phones and that's exactly what people want.Please then let us know of something similar that has more battery power. Hell doing all that stuff on a laptop you would be lucky to get 3 hrs battery time.

HowEver
Aug 27th, 2008, 08:57 PM
Please then let us know of something similar that has more battery power. Hell doing all that stuff on a laptop you would be lucky to get 3 hrs battery time.

True enough, I get limited surfing on my Nokia smartphone, make some calls, I had one with GPS and one without, and I'm lucky to get 6 days out of it.

JumboJones
Aug 27th, 2008, 09:46 PM
You're not trying to say your Nokia is comparable to the iPhone are you?

Really you would need to compare the iPhone battery to that of another similar phone, like the Instinct or the LG VU. Larger screens and touch capabilities are obviously going to take more power than button navigation and dialing.

HowEver
Aug 27th, 2008, 09:57 PM
God no.

I'm just saying that I have a Nokia smartphone that I recharge every 6 days. That isn't what I get from my iPhone 3G obviously.

You're not trying to say your Nokia is comparable to the iPhone are you?

Really you would need to compare the iPhone battery to that of another similar phone, like the Instinct or the LG VU. Larger screens and touch capabilities are obviously going to take more power than button navigation and dialing.

Elric
Aug 27th, 2008, 10:22 PM
Are people really bitching about battery? Are you ever away from a computer or car for over 24 hours? Plus, am I the only one with extra iPod cables like everywhere?

JumboJones
Aug 27th, 2008, 11:04 PM
I'm just saying that I have a Nokia smartphone that I recharge every 6 days. That isn't what I get from my iPhone 3G obviously.You're a lucky one then, my current Nokia gets maybe 2 days standby, we wont even mention the talk time. It's been like this since I got it, can't say it's a bum battery either because my wife has the same one with the same problem. Here's hoping my new 6301 has more to offer, or it's going back real quick.

jeepguy
Aug 28th, 2008, 09:10 AM
Please then let us know of something similar that has more battery power. Hell doing all that stuff on a laptop you would be lucky to get 3 hrs battery time.

last time I checked you can have an extra battery for your blackberry to extend use, same goes for laptops, apple excluded this by having a sealed unit. Apple could have made it a little thicker for extended battery life or had that as an option.

MacGYVER
Aug 28th, 2008, 09:24 AM
Quite the response in this thread from my original post.

Let me clarify one thing, I do know that the iPhone is more then a phone. Trust me, you will find many posts of mine that date back to the original iPod Touch and first generation iPhone stating this. So, no as some of you have stated, I did not miss any of that at all. Why mention it, when nobody really is complaining about the iPod aspect of the device?

One comment was made that they don't need a data plan because they have Wifi at home and at work. For the majority of Canadians across the country, we use our personal computers hooked up to the internet and use our monitors to view content. I know I do and don't rely on my iPhone to surf the internet, check E-mail or look up Google Maps while at home surfing the internet on my larger LCD monitor from my 3.5 inch screen iPhone. I do however, use the iPhone as a phone when at home or at work. I can see how using the iPhone's Wifi at work could be used for those that don't have internet access like at home. Like I said earlier, Wifi is advertised as a 3rd option with Apple for the device.

What's the first thing you see when visiting Apple's home page? iPhone 3G. That's right, the 3G doesn't stand for third generation, it is a network speed that is advertised not only on their website, but also in television ads, magazine covers and inserts. You will be hard pressed to find the words "iPhone Wifi" as the main push for advertising the second generation iPhone. In fact, I believe it was one of the main reasons Canadians wanted the all in one device in the first place. To me and many others Wifi is an added bonus for the all in one device we know as the iPhone. Its main purpose though is to take advantage of the 3G network any time, anywhere and whenever it can.

Could you imagine if most iPhone users in Canada didn't embrace the 3G technology in this country and opted for no data and only used Wifi on their device? We would never move ahead and always lag behind in technology. So, I'm glad that most users of the iPhone have adapted to the 3G network and have a data plan. It's obvious that our 3G network is new in this country and that we have a little way to go before it matures to the point where all the kinks are worked out.

There are still many Canadians who want the iPhone 3G, but only willing to pay for a voice plan. I say, save your money, buy the iPod Touch for a one time price. Get a no contract month to month deal with another carrier without all the voice plan extra system access fees slapped on like Fido or Rogers. That would be the cheapest way to go. Especially for students, or those on a low minimum budget or who do not need 3G network and only want to rely on Wifi at all times. It just doesn't make sense to pay Rogers/Fido a monthly phone plan with system access fees, set up fees, just to use the iPhone over Wifi only. Plus you would be saving a lot of money over the long term and wouldn't have to worry about accidentally being charged for 3G network data usage.

I hope everyone is having fun with this new technology in our pockets. It can only get better as time moves on :) .

jeepguy
Aug 28th, 2008, 09:36 AM
One comment was made that they don't need a data plan because they have Wifi at home and at work. For the majority of Canadians across the country, we use our personal computers hooked up to the internet and use our monitors to view content. I know I do and don't rely on my iPhone to surf the internet, check E-mail or look up Google Maps while at home surfing the internet on my larger LCD monitor from my 3.5 inch screen iPhone. I do however, use the iPhone as a phone when at home or at work. I can see how using the iPhone's Wifi at work could be used for those that don't have internet access like at home. Like I said earlier, Wifi is advertised as a 3rd option with Apple for the device.

I agree, when I'm at home I use my 24" iMac or Mac mini, and at work I use my dual 22" screen setup, the iphone is for when I'm out and about, and there is little to no wifi most of the times, and some times not even GPRS/Edge let alone 3G, did a trade show at enbridge center, and it was up and down more times than a brides pajamas on here honeymoon.

HowEver
Aug 28th, 2008, 09:43 AM
I don't know, I tried tiltsnake on my MacBook Pro and it just wasn't the same as on my iPhone 3G...

Z06jerry
Aug 28th, 2008, 09:57 AM
There are still many Canadians who want the iPhone 3G, but only willing to pay for a voice plan. I say, save your money, buy the iPod Touch for a one time price.

That should work really well when I want to make my next phone call (sarcasm)

So your saying I should pay about $100 more for an iPod that doesn't make or receive phone calls, doesn't have a camera, gps receiver, speaker or microphone and oh ya I get to carry 2 devices in my pocket? That's just dumb! :rolleyes:

Some great Apps like YouNote, Memo, GPS Compass, etc won't even work on an iPod Touch! ... but work quite nicely on my iPhone 3G (without data) :eek:

The iPhone 3G is first & foremost a GREAT phone, even if you choose not to subscribe to data. :D

whatiwant
Aug 28th, 2008, 10:19 AM
last time I checked you can have an extra battery for your blackberry to extend use, same goes for laptops, apple excluded this by having a sealed unit. Apple could have made it a little thicker for extended battery life or had that as an option.
or you could buy a backup battery/charger for your iPhone. Amazon.com: Kensington Mini Battery Extender and Charger for iPod and iPhone 1G, 3G (Black): Electronics (http://www.amazon.com/Kensington-Battery-Extender-Charger-iPhone/dp/B0018DKODQ)

sure it's clunky, but for myself, i'd much rather prefer plugging iPhone into one of these than having the form factor of the phone become larger.

in terms of replacing the battery down the road, yeah... that sucks.