: self driving Driverless car kills pedestrian


macintosh doctor
Mar 19th, 2018, 03:01 PM
I hope the madness for autonomous cars ends here..
https://digg.com/2018/self-driving-uber-pedestrian-death

wonderings
Mar 19th, 2018, 03:09 PM
I hope the madness for autonomous cars ends here..
https://digg.com/2018/self-driving-uber-pedestrian-death

I personally love the idea of self driving cars. The idea of just getting in my car in the morning and sitting back and relaxing while it drives me to work is fantastic. Definitely improvements need to be made and will continue to be made as the software gets smarter.

This story makes it sound like a woman was not where she was supposed to be walking out into traffic.
"The Uber vehicle was reportedly driving early Monday when a woman walking outside of the crosswalk was struck."

Not sure if this crosswalk was at a light or what, but if so I think the car would have been slowing down to stop for a red light before the crosswalk. This of course does not make it alright as a human driver most likely would have seen her and stopped... or maybe not. A real annoyance to me is people who cross all over the place on busy roads where they are not supposed to.

eMacMan
Mar 19th, 2018, 06:11 PM
In or out of the crosswalk makes no difference. I frequently have to slow or stop for deer crossing the highway. Let me assure you they do not limit themselves to marked crossings, or check for oncoming traffic.

I won't get a ticket if I hit one, but at the price of airbags my car would probably be a write-off.:eek:

IOW If the algorithms fail to detect pedestrians then autonomous is not ready for prime time.

CubaMark
Mar 19th, 2018, 07:55 PM
The reporting could be a wee bit clearer. Was there a 2nd person on a bicycle who was also hit? Or was the woman walking her bicycle along the side of the road? The ABC15 report has video of the vehicle with a bicycle laying on the sidewalk, and behind the Uber vehicle is apparently where the victim was laying. The Verge article (2nd link on the Digg page) says authorities say no bicyclist was struck... but don't clarify its presence. The road does not appear to have any crosswalk nearby.

And... what exactly was the "Safety Driver" behind the wheel doing at the time of the crash?

rgray
Mar 19th, 2018, 11:41 PM
There was an operator in the vehicle!

Can't understand why they didn't intervene.

I hope there are criminal charges involved.

:D

TiltAgain
Mar 20th, 2018, 01:57 AM
On a completely unrelated matter, Digg still exists??????

Cheers

Macfury
Mar 20th, 2018, 09:56 AM
https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Exclusive-Tempe-police-chief-says-early-probe-12765481.php#photo-15257361

It appears from early police reports that no vehicle could have been expected to avoid hitting the pedestrian.

Pushing a bicycle laden with plastic shopping bags, a woman abruptly walked from a center median into a lane of traffic and was struck by a self-driving Uber operating in autonomous mode.

. . . . . .

From viewing the videos, “it’s very clear it would have been difficult to avoid this collision in any kind of mode (autonomous or human-driven) based on how she came from the shadows right into the roadway,” Moir said.

macintosh doctor
Mar 20th, 2018, 11:28 AM
In or out of the crosswalk makes no difference. I frequently have to slow or stop for deer crossing the highway. Let me assure you they do not limit themselves to marked crossings, or check for oncoming traffic.

I won't get a ticket if I hit one, but at the price of airbags my car would probably be a write-off.:eek:

IOW If the algorithms fail to detect pedestrians then autonomous is not ready for prime time.

agreed with what you wrote fully..
our newest auto the VW Atlas executive line / trim - has pedestrian sensors and 360 cameras - all the newest tech package.. but i will assure you i will not take the safety of the auto over my own reactions or expect technology to think for me.. has it worked since i owned it? yes and no

example one : car in front of me slammed on the brakes and the car reacted by screaming BRAKES! on the dash and slamming them on before i could..

Example two : my wife was under ground and well no more needs to be said.. she claimed none of the sensors worked.. $8K later to repair the car.

so that said technology will fail its not an if but a when. Your iPhone freezes.. your irobot vacuum gets confused your macintosh has kernel panics etc.. until that is all worked out
autonomous cars need to be off the roads..

Besides - what the heck was the Human driver doing during all this. ?

Macfury
Mar 20th, 2018, 11:37 AM
aExample two : my wife was under ground and well no more needs to be said.. she claimed none of the sensors worked.. $8K later to repair the car.

Can you expand on that-what happened?


Besides - what the heck was the Human driver doing during all this. ?

The pedestrian apparently stepped in front of the vehicle from the side, so that neither human or computer could brake.

macintosh doctor
Mar 20th, 2018, 12:09 PM
Can you expand on that-what happened?


the day it happened my wife had to take one of our kids to a post surgery follow up downtown.. i mentioned to the wife dont take the atlas - it is too large take the jeep - but as a female logic goes, she didn't. the hospital in question had been under going renos in the parking - reduced lanes, narrow lanes impossible turning radiuses etc..

so based on what i gathered she wedged the atlas into a wall and shaved the side of the SUV.. no more needs to be said.. sometimes a circle will not fit in a triangle hole..

she claimed none of 360 cameras or sensors where working and no warnings.. i didn't want to turn it into a marital situation - so i had no choice, except claim it with insurance - we did call the hospital to file a complaint saying better signage before entering under ground that clearance is not existent due to construction etc.. also i phoned insurance demanding we share the accident 50/50 but the law states - you take full responsibility when you are in contact with an Inanimate object .

unfortunately some learn off their mistakes. some learn off others - in this case it was an expensive lesson for us..



The pedestrian apparently stepped in front of the vehicle from the side, so that neither human or computer could brake.

As a human i am always doing the "big picture".. especially when near cross walks one always has to assume humans are idiots and uneducated when it comes to logic and heavy objects - i drive in Downtown Toronto and near school zones regularly and sadly humans believe they have the right of way - regardless of consequence - therefore i would as a human - slow down before such an intersection..

Macfury
Mar 20th, 2018, 12:45 PM
As a human i am always doing the "big picture".. especially when near cross walks one always has to assume humans are idiots and uneducated when it comes to logic and heavy objects - i drive in Downtown Toronto and near school zones regularly and sadly humans believe they have the right of way - regardless of consequence - therefore i would as a human - slow down before such an intersection..

I do the same. No camera is likely to anticipate seeing a human being because you've noticed a shadow underneath a car parked on the side of the road. But from the sound of it, this sounded more like someone stepping out on the road from an unlit area, onto a straightaway--not near an intersection.

macintosh doctor
Mar 20th, 2018, 01:20 PM
I do the same. No camera is likely to anticipate seeing a human being because you've noticed a shadow underneath a car parked on the side of the road. But from the sound of it, this sounded more like someone stepping out on the road from an unlit area, onto a straightaway--not near an intersection.

unfortunately - humans behave like they are in the open sea - marine law states that smaller objects have right of way.. some how i do disagree with that.

pm-r
Mar 20th, 2018, 06:00 PM
unfortunately - humans behave like they are in the open sea - marine law states that smaller objects have right of way..



:lmao: Oh my God…!!!

Wow, where did you get that info from ??? and you obviously don't do any boating and sure didn't pass any Sailing or Power Squadron Course, or you are trying to being funny.

Try testing out that when you find a large freighter heading right for your 24' weekend cruiser and see what happens. :o

pm-r
Mar 20th, 2018, 06:16 PM
The pedestrian apparently stepped in front of the vehicle from the side, so that neither human or computer could brake.

Even so, in a Canadian court (traffic at least) of law, the driver is considered to always be in full control of the car being driven at all times.

The court assumes if the car hit something, then the driver was not in full control. Hard to argue at times and/or under various circumstances, but that is the written law.

Macfury
Mar 20th, 2018, 07:01 PM
The question was whether it would have been possible for a non-autonomous vehicle to stop in the same circumstance, given the laws of physics, which supercede Canadian Law.

Even so, in a Canadian court (traffic at least) of law, the driver is considered to always be in full control of the car being driven at all times.

The court assumes if the car hit something, then the driver was not in full control. Hard to argue at times and/or under various circumstances, but that is the written law.

macintosh doctor
Mar 20th, 2018, 07:18 PM
:lmao: Oh my God…!!!

Wow, where did you get that info from ??? and you obviously don't do any boating and sure didn't pass any Sailing or Power Squadron Course, or you are trying to being funny.

Try testing out that when you find a large freighter heading right for your 24' weekend cruiser and see what happens. :o

if you are powered you have to yield to non powered, if you are a bigger power boat then you have to yield to smaller ones - so you better watch out if i am out in the sea - lol
and I am captaining lol

back on topic - Humans have this ridiculous sense of the world revolves around them..
especially in downtown locations..

rgray
Mar 20th, 2018, 08:00 PM
Story just gets better and better!

Convicted armed robber who was at wheel of killer self-driving Uber car | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5524031/PICTURED-Felon-wheel-killer-self-driving-Uber-car.html)

macintosh doctor
Mar 20th, 2018, 09:36 PM
Story just gets better and better!

Convicted armed robber who was at wheel of killer self-driving Uber car | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5524031/PICTURED-Felon-wheel-killer-self-driving-Uber-car.html)

now i am confused - that is a man who is a woman who is a convicted armed robber - this stuff you can not even make up..
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/03/20/18/4A61202200000578-0-image-m-2_1521569000665.jpg

macintosh doctor
Mar 21st, 2018, 04:26 PM
i wonder why volvo's pedestrian avoidance didn't work.. but i get this video says it all.
https://youtu.be/IBCr-XBWZaQ

pm-r
Mar 21st, 2018, 05:12 PM
i wonder why volvo's pedestrian avoidance didn't work.. but i get this video says it all.
https://youtu.be/IBCr-XBWZaQ



Well, I guess there was some improvement in five years when that was released compared to an earlier try:
https://youtu.be/w2pwxv8rFkU

But I do hope it keeps improving as a lot of drivers seem to be getting worse these days and it could improve a commuters life and maybe even save them some precious time.

But they'll sure have to change a lot of driving regulations and rules as that sure entails using "electronic devices" while driving, which is currently banned. At least locally it is.

eMacMan
Mar 22nd, 2018, 12:07 PM
https://www.seattlepi.com/business/technology/article/Police-release-video-of-fatal-crash-by-Uber-12771834.php

I was wondering if the radar-laser combo should have been better than the human eye.

"The victim did not come out of nowhere. She's moving on a dark road, but it's an open road, so Lidar (laser) and radar should have detected and classified her" as a human, said Bryant Walker Smith, a University of South Carolina law professor who studies autonomous vehicles.

Smith said the video may not show the complete picture, but "this is strongly suggestive of multiple failures of Uber and its system, its automated system, and its safety driver."

Sam Abuelsmaid, an analyst for Navigant Research who also follows autonomous vehicles, said laser and radar systems can see in the dark much better than humans or cameras and that Herzberg was well within the range.

"It absolutely should have been able to pick her up," he said. "From what I see in the video it sure looks like the car is at fault, not the pedestrian."

Smith said that from what he observed on the video, the Uber driver appears to be relying too much on the self-driving system by not looking up at the road.

"The safety driver is clearly relying on the fact that the car is driving itself. It's the old adage that if everyone is responsible no one is responsible," Smith said. "This is everything gone wrong that these systems, if responsibly implemented, are supposed to prevent."

The experts were unsure if the test vehicle was equipped with a video monitor that the backup driver may have been viewing.

pm-r
Mar 22nd, 2018, 03:37 PM
Parts of the actual video released and available here:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-selfdriving-uber/arizona-police-release-video-of-fatal-collision-with-uber-self-driving-suv-idUSKBN1GX39A?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=408

It seems a bit odd the electronic sensors didn't pickup or respond to the woman's moving presence who appears to be almost in the middle of the road just before the impact.

And the poor driver was sure surprised when she suddenly appeared.

FeXL
Mar 23rd, 2018, 03:39 PM
Related:

Uber's Death Car and the Cracks in Liberal Culture (https://pjmedia.com/spengler/ubers-death-car-cracks-liberal-culture/)

Video of Uber's self-driving car killing Elaine Herzberg is available on YouTube. It will--or at least should--produce shock waves in the culture. The Silicon Valley cult of Artificial Intelligence (AI) -- and the related cult of brain science -- is a main source of today's cultural despair. If the brain is merely a machine that white-coated lab techs can measure and manipulate like any other machine, and if machines can be programmed to emulate the human brain, then human existence has no purpose. Our destiny is fixed in the same way that the paths of the planets and the orbits of electrons are fixed, and our free will, moral responsibility, devotion to the past and regard for the future are the random effluvia of a deterministic process.

If that is the case, then it doesn't matter what we do. We can pursue whatever pleasures or perversions strike our fancy at the moment, because nothing really matters. We are alone in a hostile universe and find our humanity, if such a thing there be, in arbitrary acts of self-assertion. The highest virtue is to define one's own identity, because only the willful assertion of individual particularity answers the emptiness of the universe, and the next-highest virtue is to reinforce other people's arbitrary self-assertion (for example by eliminating offending male-and-female pronouns in order to protect the sensibilities of transgender people).