: OS 10.9.5 is driving me nuts - with autosave?


krs
Feb 19th, 2016, 11:43 AM
OS 10.9.5 is driving me nuts.

I find Apple has really lost its touch when it comes to a user friendly operating system.
I wonder if some of these idiosynchrasies are fixed in a later OS.

The latest one is that with some of the Apple applications, preview this time, the original pdf is automatically replaced with the one I modified even though I specifically used the "saved as" command and saved the changes with a different name.

To be perfectly clear:

Document ABC.pdf is on my Mac
I open it with preview, open thumbnails and delete a few pages in the pdf
Then go to "Save As" by holding down the option key.
Save the changed document as ABCmod.pdf
When I check back, the original ABC.pdf is also replaced by the modified ABCmod.pdf document and the original ABC.pdf document is gone.

So does one now have to remember to first make a duplicate of the original document so one does not lose it?
I really have to restrain myself - I have some really choice words for the developers at Apple.

monokitty
Feb 19th, 2016, 11:56 AM
Turn Off Auto-Save in OS X Mountain Lion & Mavericks | OSXDaily (http://osxdaily.com/2012/08/22/turn-off-auto-save-os-x/).

CubaMark
Feb 19th, 2016, 12:11 PM
I find many folks who have forgotten (or never grokked in the first place) that TimeMachine ain't just for backups; you can "roll back" to earlier versions of a file by entering TimeMachine while the document in question is open.

http://blog.macsales.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/tm_starfield.png

More details: About Auto Save and Versions (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202255)

krs
Feb 19th, 2016, 12:39 PM
Turn Off Auto-Save in OS X Mountain Lion & Mavericks | OSXDaily (http://osxdaily.com/2012/08/22/turn-off-auto-save-os-x/).

Thanks, but that isn't it.

I just checked and auto-save was already turned off, ie the box was not checked.

I'll have to do some more digging to see what else it could be.

krs
Feb 19th, 2016, 12:51 PM
I find many folks who have forgotten (or never grokked in the first place) that TimeMachine ain't just for backups; you can "roll back" to earlier versions of a file by entering TimeMachine while the document in question is open.

I don't use time machine.

But in general - why would Apple ever think that it is OK to just overwrite the original file with changes?
That was probably done by the same Apple idiot who decided "Save AS" was no longer needed.
I guess Apple never heard of "Don't fix it if it ain't broke"

As far as my 'problem' is concerned, is there some other place I should check.
Preview itself has nothing in its preferences that relate to 'auto-save'

eMacMan
Feb 19th, 2016, 12:58 PM
I find many folks who have forgotten (or never grokked in the first place) that TimeMachine ain't just for backups; you can "roll back" to earlier versions of a file by entering TimeMachine while the document in question is open.

http://blog.macsales.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/tm_starfield.png

More details: About Auto Save and Versions (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202255)

Perhaps but TimeMachine should not be the only way to get back to your start point, nor should one have to run TimeMachine as a defense against an OS that goes one way when you tell it to go another.

As KRS says having to dupe a file before working on it is just plain bad. How many times do we open files, just to review. Make a minor change or two, do a Save As, so the original file (supposedly) remains intact.

SINC
Feb 19th, 2016, 01:15 PM
Thanks, but that isn't it.

I just checked and auto-save was already turned off, ie the box was not checked.

I'll have to do some more digging to see what else it could be.

I could be wrong, but is not the opposite the case here? With the box checked, it is turned off and unchecked means it is on??

krs
Feb 19th, 2016, 01:50 PM
This whole "Save As" option seems to be messed up in 10.9

For some applications "Save As" shows up under the file menu, for others it only shows when one holds down the option key and on others it never shows up even with the option key held down (like 'Grab')

Did any of this get fixed with OS 10.11?
What about the "auto-save" on 10.11?

I hate upgrading and then find Apple managed to mess up a few more things.

polywog
Feb 19th, 2016, 01:50 PM
OS 10.9.5 is driving me nuts.

I find Apple has really lost its touch when it comes to a user friendly operating system.
I wonder if some of these idiosynchrasies are fixed in a later OS.

The latest one is that with some of the Apple applications, preview this time, the original pdf is automatically replaced with the one I modified even though I specifically used the "saved as" command and saved the changes with a different name.

To be perfectly clear:

Document ABC.pdf is on my Mac
I open it with preview, open thumbnails and delete a few pages in the pdf
Then go to "Save As" by holding down the option key.
Save the changed document as ABCmod.pdf
When I check back, the original ABC.pdf is also replaced by the modified ABCmod.pdf document and the original ABC.pdf document is gone.

So does one now have to remember to first make a duplicate of the original document so one does not lose it?
I really have to restrain myself - I have some really choice words for the developers at Apple.

Does it work if you use Duplicate (Rather than save as) and then make your edits on the copy?

krs
Feb 19th, 2016, 01:53 PM
I could be wrong, but is not the opposite the case here? With the box checked, it is turned off and unchecked means it is on??

I think you're right.

the prompt is

Ask to keep changes when closing documents

krs
Feb 19th, 2016, 02:09 PM
I have to do some more testing.

When I enable the "Ask to keep changes when closing documents" I get this with one specific pdf.

When I close it after making a change, a window comes up asking me if I want to save the changes, but it only gives me three options - keep the changes, revert changes or cancel - no option to keep changes as a different file, ie a new file name.
So this is pretty useless.
If instead of closing the pdf after I made a change I select save as with a new file name, it seems to work but then the changed file won't close and I just get the spinning wheel until I do a force quit.
This is a several hundred page pdf I'm trying this on; I will get a smaller one to see if that makes any difference.
Change I'm doing is to just delete a few of the pdf pages by chosing show thumbnails and deleting those.

krs
Feb 19th, 2016, 02:13 PM
Does it work if you use Duplicate (Rather than save as) and then make your edits on the copy?

Yes

PS: Only with the prompt unchecked.
With the prompt checked I end up with the edited document as a "Document" type with a bunch of letters after the file name I assigned and no way of opening it.
Not only that, the original pdf was around 60 MB, this new file is 344 MB, that with two pages of the original pdf deleted.

krs
Feb 19th, 2016, 03:46 PM
I really have the feeling that the Apple software designers have no clue what they are doing in this case.

The original pdf document is 288 pages at 62.3 MB
When I delete a large number of pages using Preview, I ended up with the document at 59 pages which what I wanted but the size of the document increased to 100.1 MB
That doesn't make any sense to me at all.
I then decided to use Adobe Acrobat to delete the same pages that I deleted with Preview.
That document now shows a size of 11.9 MB
This all with "Ask to keep changes" unchecked
BTW - when I deleted the pages in the pdf document using Acrobat the original did not change when I used "Save As"
And "Save As" is also a regular option in the drop down menu, no need to hold down the option key

pm-r
Feb 19th, 2016, 06:53 PM
I could be wrong, but is not the opposite the case here? With the box checked, it is turned off and unchecked means it is on??


In my Mavericks 10.9.5, and clicking the "?" for help I get:

Ask to keep changes when closing documents:

Unsaved changes are saved automatically when you close documents. If you prefer to be asked if you want to save changes, select this checkbox.

And I must agree that Apple's implementations of "saving" methods has much to be desired, if and when it ever works, and why the huge file bloat when it does. Crazy!!

krs
Feb 19th, 2016, 07:56 PM
I wonder if any of this has been improved with OS 10.11.

From what I have read, people seem to be pretty happy with 10.11

pm-r
Feb 19th, 2016, 09:08 PM
krs, I must thank you for starting this discussion and I must admit that I tried to get into it a few weeks ago but you got me to do more.

As a long time SL user until about three years ago, a lot of the newer OS X stuff with my major jump up to 10.9.5 didn't make much sense, and I only tried 10.7.x and 10.8.x for a short time.

It hadn't really sunk into my brain what a serious change Apple made in 10.7 as far as their various ideas of Save, Duplicate and Versions actually went.

Gheese, I'm still in the old habit of hitting command+S when creating a document, and now find I'm goofing things up for myself.

Gheese, so much for changing twenty some years of a saving habit…

Anyway, and I'm still trying to learn and so far I'm staying with 10.9.5 Mavericks and I don't see any new "features" that I need.

So thanks, and here are some sites I found quite useful, and some of the comments.

How To Enable 'Save As' Option In Mac OS X | Redmond Pie (http://www.redmondpie.com/how-to-enable-save-as-option-in-mac-os-x/)
Enable “Save As” in OS X Yosemite, Mountain Lion, & OS X Mavericks | OSXDaily (http://osxdaily.com/2012/08/27/enable-save-as-os-x-mountain-lion/)
Everything you learned about saving files is wrong [McNeel Wiki] (http://wiki.mcneel.com/rhino/mac/lionsaving)
Mac 911: Using old versions of iWork alongside the new Pages, Keynote, and Numbers | Macworld (http://www.macworld.com/article/2925072/mac-911-using-old-versions-of-iwork-alongside-the-new-pages-keynote-and-numbers.html)

and
"Updated December 04, 2014.
Auto-Save and Versions have been part of OS X since the release of OS X Lion. These two features fundamentally changed how you work with documents on a Mac. In most cases, they free you from having to manually save a document as you work on it; they also allow you to return to or compare previous versions of a document.

Unfortunately, Apple didn't provide much information on how to use these new features; you may not even have noticed them. …"
And still haven't from what I've seen!!
Using Auto-Save and Versions in OS X (http://macs.about.com/od/usingyourmac/qt/Using-Auto-Save-And-Versions-In-Os-X.htm)

PS: I'm still fighting and figuring out Pages '09 and Pages 5 etc. and how they don't work as expected.

Not sure I like or understand Apple's OS directions the last few years… :o

krs
Feb 19th, 2016, 10:44 PM
Thanks for the links.

This is really mindboggling.
So whenever I use an existing document as a template like I always have in the past, Apple keeps updating it without giving me the slightest indication that is happening.

And if I turn on the notify me option things get even more screwed up.

The second link is sort of interesting - it supposedly brings back the traditional "Save As" option.
Has anyone tried that?
I'm rather nervous to try it not knowing what else would get screwed up

I have about a dozen Macs in the family still running 10.6, they all have the hardware to move to 10.9 or even 10.11 but I can guarantee that those users are occasionally going to forget to make a duplicate of each file they want to work on before they start...and thus lose the original.

yeeeha
Feb 20th, 2016, 03:14 AM
Just some comment about a few topics mentioned in this thread, based on my observation of using OS 10.9 for only almost two years.

If I remember correct from past reading that Apple stripped out "Save As" and replaced it with "Duplicate" as of OS 10.7. There was no easy way to call up the "Save As" option in that OS. Only after significant complain from users that Apple reinstated "Save As" in OS 10.8 via pressing the option key and choosing "Duplicate". It seems that "Duplicate" can behave like "Save As" but with at least one extra step. Maybe "Duplicate" is somewhat related to versioning that Apple promotes, but I don't really know as I don't use "Duplicate". I am still old school and like to use "Save As".

As far as I can tell, looks like only Apple apps use "Duplicate" e.g. TextEdit, Preview, and older version of app like Keynote. The exception that I can find so far is QuickTime 7, which doesn't have "Duplicate". I have Microsoft Word 2011 installed in OS 10.9.5 and there is no "Duplicate" at all only "Save As". Photoshop CS6 only has the "Save As" option too. GraphicConverter 8.8.2 has both "Save As" and "Duplicate". The pattern suggests that only Apple apps use "Duplicate".

I agree that the implementation of reinstating "Save As" is not consistent in all Apple apps. There is no "Save As" in Grab. But then I don't know why I would need "Save As" when using Grab.

About stripping some pages out of a PDF file and saving the new document that ends up gaining in size: it is true when doing it with Preview. I have no idea why. When I need to do this, I use Acrobat.

I also continue to use older version of iWork, as some functions/features in the older version are not entirely available in more recent versions. The version of Keynote that I am using is 5.3. This is like the situation with QuickTime X. It has less advanced functions like that in QuickTime 7 Pro.

krs
Feb 20th, 2016, 11:30 AM
About stripping some pages out of a PDF file and saving the new document that ends up gaining in size: it is true when doing it with Preview. I have no idea why. When I need to do this, I use Acrobat.

I have used Preview for that for years and never had a problem.
But that was with 10.6

I "jumped" straight from 10.6 to 10.9 and was relatively happy with 10.9.
But now I'm getting nervous - wondering what other changes Apple made that could cause me to lose existing files.

chas_m
Feb 20th, 2016, 03:09 PM
Lots of misinformation here.

The only version of iOS that did not have "Save As" as an available option at all -- and even then, only in Apple-created apps like Pages -- is 10.7.

As of 10.8, Save As is always available. That is not to say it is always VISIBLE. In Apple apps, it appears by holding down the option key. In other apps, it's up to the developer if it appears by default or with the option key.

IIRC, 10.9 = 10.8 as far as this goes. Again IIRC, 10.10 and later the lack of a visible "Save As" is, as far as my limited testing can tell, only visible in Apple's own independent (not system) programs, again like Pages/Keynote as an example, or in programs that never had "Save As," like iPhoto (it was always "Export"). In programs that ever had "Save As" and now don't appear to, it's accessible with the option key.

Preview in 10.10/10.11 is hugely improved.

The statement about the chance of overwriting "templates" is probably not true, but it depends of course on what you're doing and in what program. The only programs I use "templates" in is Pages, which does not overwrite its templates since it opens templates as unsaved new documents and Keynote, where I will open last month's presentation and duplicate it from the title bar as Step 1 before I start modifying it. If I didn't do Step 1, then yes my changes would overwrite the old version -- but I could, if I made that mistake, just use Time Machine to step back.

It's really not that complicated. Third-party programs don't use the Autosave function, it's pretty much only the former iWork apps that do. Remembering to do a duplicate FIRST when you plan to modify an old document that you want to keep the original version of isn't difficult, and you also have "Save As" available from the file menu with the option key if you prefer that method. There is ZERO chance of "losing existing files" unless you're not using a backup system, which is just being stupid (and there is no defense against people who are determined to be stupid).

krs
Feb 20th, 2016, 04:55 PM
You totally missed the point.

The issue is that the original file gets changed automatically even if "Save As" is used and the changed file is saved with a different name.
That should never ever happen.
There is not even any indication that this is happening.
Apple really screwed up on this one - what's the point of ending up with two identical files with two different file names and with the original file gone.
"Save As..." is still there but it sure doesn't work the way it should (and has been since forever)