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Old Mar 26th, 2008, 05:04 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dona83 View Post
Windows has always come with Write/Wordpad which has the same functionality as TextEdit for Mac.
I'm not going to get into the whole debate, but must quibble with this one statement (but only a little). Wordpad isn't at all bad for what it is, but the last time I used it (which is some time ago now, thankfully) it was unable to read or write native .doc documents or the new .docx. TextEdit can do both of these things.

In this and more than a few other ways, TextEdit is unquestionably more powerful than Wordpad. This is not an insult to Wordpad, which actually a lot of Mac users would welcome if you made a Mac-compatible version of it -- Mac OS 9 had its own "Notepad" and it is much missed by many -- just pointing out that TE is actually better.

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The bigger underlying issues why I choose to use a Mac instead of a PC. Feature wise, Windows has copied almost every basic Mac functionality out there so the "PC can't do what Macs can do" argument no longer stands.
Sort of.

While I agree that technically speaking, there are very few things a Mac can do that are *impossible* under Windows, but because Windows is so much more awkward, convoluted and user-hostile than a Mac (and this is the point Mr. "Windows can't copy photos!" was really trying to make, I think), the range of things the TYPICAL USER cannot do on Windows but CAN do on a Mac is a much larger list.

I teach classes on Macs and am the Novice SIG leader for VMUG. I've also taught PC classes (thankfully retired from that, hopefully forever). So I'm on the front lines of what new and n00b ("beginner" implies that you will eventually move to "intermediate" and "advanced," and for most computer users that's just not true!) want to do and can do with both platforms.

I just snipped a much longer piece and will simply say that my observations are that PC classes are much more focuses on the rudimentary skills, the memorising of steps and procedures, troubleshooting (big portion of any Windows class) and "how to fix" or "how to get more help" type stuff.

Mac classes (particularly mine) focus on accomplishing things. Fun things, mostly. PC users want to know how to avoid "messing up" their machines; Mac users want to know all about extending what they do with their machines.

Over and over and over again, people who've switched say the same things to us: "I had no idea computers could be this much fun!" "I can't believe I am doing [this creative project] on my own!" and "I think I'm starting to understand what my grandkids are talking about!"

I still can't believe how many of our MUG members here in Victoria are engaged in some level of "Web 2.0" type stuff. Many have blogs, many more have photo galleries, a few have podcasts, and most are members of at least one "social network" site (such as LinkedIn or FaceBook, etc).

The last time I dropped in on a PC user group meeting, I heard the following from the stentorian instructor (I am not making this up!): "Now SOME people think that burning a CD is as easy as sticking the disc in the machine and pressing a button. I'm here to tell you it's NOT that easy! It's a big job, so get out your notepads" and (again, I am not making this up!) "If you ever get a scanner to work properly with your setup, never make a change to it again!"

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Old Mar 26th, 2008, 10:43 AM   #32
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I never expected a Windoze war (but perhaps I should always be wary of such things)...

I base my points on my own, admittedly limited, use of Windoze. And I have never used any of the "fancy" versions of Windoze for anything beyond some noodling around, mostly because I am not prepared to invest thousands of dollars into something that I would never use. Of course, if someone buys Windoze Ultimate Premium Professional whatever with some MegaPlus package - they will have access to more features, and I am not talking about such things, just straight up Windoze, as installed on a machine.

As for photographs, if say, I am on a web site and I like a certain graphic; on a Mac, I can just use the mouse to capture the picture and drag it to a folder, so I can use it for whatever; while the only method I had ever found on a Windoze box is to go through endless special directories with an aftermarket product (ACDSee) looking for it. I think they call it a cache or something, but all kinds of junk end up there. And outside of these fancy versions of Windoze that people seem to have, I have never found a way of viewing files such as JPGs (with the exception of using Spyglass... opps... Interblech Exploder), without resorting to something aftermarket like ACDSee. Mac OSX by default comes with tools appropriate for such things, like iPhoto and Preview. Perhaps such a thing, wha was it called, Fax and Picture Viewer or something, comes with special fancy versions like WindozeXP, but it never came with regular Windoze.

I commented on Word Processors. And what I am talking about are real word processors that can accomplish the creation and maintenance of large documents. I exclude such things as "office suites" because even though they may offer some degree of word processing, they are not dedicated to such tasks. One can not go out and buy "Micro$oft Word" on it's own, just as part of a giant and expensive package. Numerous word processors exist for the Mac, something that I have never seen on any Windoze box outside of a port of AbiWord.

As for browsers, with Windoze you are absolutely stuck with Spyglass, opps... Internet Explorer, and all of its rendering errors and sloppy user interface and lack of functionality. This is indeed what the anti-trust suit was all about. One can download and install Firefox - but you are always stuck with IE. On a Mac, you can choose whatever, Safari, Firefox, Camino... Safari may come with the distribution, but it is both entirely usable and it does not hijack the entire system. This can not be said of Spyglass. Web browsers are one of the myriad of things that people really get defensive about. For myself, I use Safari for some things; but I have found that I have really made a move towards Firefox because of the availability of AdBlock and FlashBlock. I do use IE from time to time, but I do dislike the cheap interface (which I can suffer with) and poor response time (which leads me to hanging various Windoze machines all the time).

As for such terminology as Windoze - it is a very slow OS, and I have had experiences of actually napping while it is trying to do something. And again, I am talking about real, practical machines; not some crazy souped up liquid cooled twenty-four processor machine that still takes three minutes to boot. I have never seen a Windoze system that is anything else but slow in every regard.

Then there are those who talk about "special knowledge to set it up correctly", or "you really do not need virus scanning" - and sure, if you have some special education at Evil Empire University and have a machine that is physically sealed away from such things as Internet - these things might be true. But I am talking about a regular installation of Windoze on a regular machine sold as "for Windoze" by users that do not have advanced educational skills but perhaps they do want to look at sites on the Internet.
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Old Mar 26th, 2008, 11:19 AM   #33
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I'm sorry, EvanPitts - as a PC user of 25+ years, I have to say you're very, very, very wrong on 99% of what you've said. I also don't think you have the right to complain and name-call as much as you have, since you don't have the knowledge or experience to back up any of your false claims.

Too many to list.... but Word CAN be purchased seperately, but for almost the same price as basic Office, making Office a better value by far. There's a cheaper package which has "Works", a previous version of Word and some other MS software for under $100 that's a pretty good value.

And just because you can't grasp the idea of RIGHT-CLICKING a web-image and saving it to a directory you can remember later, doesn't mean it can't be done. It's not "easy" but it's not "super complicated" either. I'd just classify it with "somewhat-easy" and "klunky".

Klunky.... that describes the Windows World best. It works, but it's neither streamlined, nor elegant. You have to "know the tricks" to get the most out of it. You have to know how to troubleshoot, you have to know how to do maintenance and the occasional preventative care and/or repair.


I'm sick of it, personally, and have finally come to the point where I don't want to tinker anymore - I just want the blasted computer to WORK! (and work WELL!) I want the graphics to be smooth and pretty. I want the computer to be silent and stylish. That's why I'm getting a Mac.
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Old Mar 26th, 2008, 11:56 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
As for photographs, if say, I am on a web site and I like a certain graphic; on a Mac, I can just use the mouse to capture the picture and drag it to a folder, so I can use it for whatever; while the only method I had ever found on a Windoze box is to go through endless special directories with an aftermarket product (ACDSee) looking for it. I think they call it a cache or something, but all kinds of junk end up there. And outside of these fancy versions of Windoze that people seem to have, I have never found a way of viewing files such as JPGs (with the exception of using Spyglass... opps... Interblech Exploder), without resorting to something aftermarket like ACDSee. Mac OSX by default comes with tools appropriate for such things, like iPhoto and Preview. Perhaps such a thing, wha was it called, Fax and Picture Viewer or something, comes with special fancy versions like WindozeXP, but it never came with regular Windoze.
No no no, Fax and Picture Viewer comes on XP Home which is the one most basic users are using, and even Vista Basic has a built in photo viewer. You can save files from the internet by right clicking and save picture as. Most Windows users I know how to do this.

Quote:
As for browsers, with Windoze you are absolutely stuck with Spyglass, opps... Internet Explorer, and all of its rendering errors and sloppy user interface and lack of functionality. This is indeed what the anti-trust suit was all about. One can download and install Firefox - but you are always stuck with IE. On a Mac, you can choose whatever, Safari, Firefox, Camino... Safari may come with the distribution, but it is both entirely usable and it does not hijack the entire system. This can not be said of Spyglass. Web browsers are one of the myriad of things that people really get defensive about. For myself, I use Safari for some things; but I have found that I have really made a move towards Firefox because of the availability of AdBlock and FlashBlock. I do use IE from time to time, but I do dislike the cheap interface (which I can suffer with) and poor response time (which leads me to hanging various Windoze machines all the time).
It's called opening the web browser you want and clicking yes when it asks you if you want to set it as the default browser. A vast majority of my friends use Firefox and deleted the IE shortcuts so they never have to see it again.

Quote:
As for such terminology as Windoze - it is a very slow OS, and I have had experiences of actually napping while it is trying to do something. And again, I am talking about real, practical machines; not some crazy souped up liquid cooled twenty-four processor machine that still takes three minutes to boot. I have never seen a Windoze system that is anything else but slow in every regard.
Last I timed, my Mac took almost as much time as my PC to boot. Mind you I've loaded up my Mac with lots of stuff and only have 10GB free on my hard drive.

Quote:
Then there are those who talk about "special knowledge to set it up correctly", or "you really do not need virus scanning" - and sure, if you have some special education at Evil Empire University and have a machine that is physically sealed away from such things as Internet - these things might be true. But I am talking about a regular installation of Windoze on a regular machine sold as "for Windoze" by users that do not have advanced educational skills but perhaps they do want to look at sites on the Internet.
Thank you for finally nailing why many of my friends have switched over to a Mac. They're tired of viruses, spyware, malware, Heck I was proficient in dealing with these things but didn't want to anymore which is why I switched over to a Mac.

I'm not defending Windows, I enjoy bashing PCs as much as you do but we can't have this fanboy reputation of spreading false facts about PCs.
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Old Mar 26th, 2008, 01:24 PM   #35
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*sigh*

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
...I have never used any of the "fancy" versions of Windoze for anything beyond some noodling around, mostly because I am not prepared to invest thousands of dollars into something that I would never use.
The most expensive version of Windows available for the consumer is 500$ CAD. Hardly thousands of dollars.

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Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
if say, I am on a web site and I like a certain graphic; on a Mac, I can just use the mouse to capture the picture and drag it to a folder, so I can use it for whatever; while the only method I had ever found on a Windoze box is to go through endless special directories with an aftermarket product (ACDSee) looking for it.
So you nver tried using the mouse on your Windows machine? Because you can simply drag an image out of a webpage (unless the webpage has some protections in place) onto the desktop of a Windows machine just like you can on the Mac. Or you can right click and 'save as...' just like you can on the Mac.


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Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
And outside of these fancy versions of Windoze that people seem to have, I have never found a way of viewing files such as JPGs [...] without resorting to something aftermarket like ACDSee.
So you never double clicked on the photo? That ACDSee (or some other app) takes over all file associations when you install it doesn't mean that Windows doesn't provide basic functionality.

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Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
I commented on Word Processors. And what I am talking about are real word processors that can accomplish the creation and maintenance of large documents. I exclude such things as "office suites" because even though they may offer some degree of word processing, they are not dedicated to such tasks. One can not go out and buy "Micro$oft Word" on it's own, just as part of a giant and expensive package. Numerous word processors exist for the Mac, something that I have never seen on any Windoze box outside of a port of AbiWord.
Microsoft Word is a real word processor which _can_ be purchased on it's own. Word Perfect is too, although both are generally only carried in stores as part of their respective Office packages because the Office packages are a much better deal. Case in point, Office Home and Student is 180$, Word is 160ish.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
On a Mac, you can choose whatever, Safari, Firefox, Camino... Safari may come with the distribution, but it is both entirely usable and it does not hijack the entire system.
Actually Safari, or rather WebKit/WebCore, is pretty much as ingrained into Mac OS X as IE is into Windows. You can get rid of Safari, but there are a myriad of other apps that make use of the rendering engine.

Same in Windows, too. I haven't bothered uninstalling IE from my machine, but once you download an alternative and set that altenative as your default browser (which basically all of them ask you to do when you run them) you can ignore IE pretty much entirely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
As for such terminology as Windoze
It's immature and only serves to fan the flames of the ongoing immature "my OS is better than your OS" bullshit that's been going on since Windows came out. End of story.


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Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
[Windows] is a very slow OS, and I have had experiences of actually napping while it is trying to do something. And again, I am talking about real, practical machines; not some crazy souped up liquid cooled twenty-four processor machine that still takes three minutes to boot. I have never seen a Windoze system that is anything else but slow in every regard.
Then you haven't seen many Windows based systems. In fact, Windows has been a more responsive OS on similar hardware than Mac OS X has for some time. Vista is the exception to this, not the rule.

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Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
Then there are those who talk about "special knowledge to set it up correctly", or "you really do not need virus scanning" - and sure, if you have some special education at Evil Empire University and have a machine that is physically sealed away from such things as Internet - these things might be true. But I am talking about a regular installation of Windoze on a regular machine sold as "for Windoze" by users that do not have advanced educational skills but perhaps they do want to look at sites on the Internet.
You don't need special knowledge to set up a Windows machine, what you do need (and what many years selling computers has taught me most people don't have) is a willingness to learn, or more importantly to not convince yourself that you never can. Actually taking the time to figure this stuff out rather than just failing once and writing it off will go a long way toward increasing your productivity/knowledge base/ability to troubleshoot further problems in the future.
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Old Mar 26th, 2008, 01:33 PM   #36
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Windows XP was fine for the first month. It was great. It is not as pretty as osx by any means. Does not come with all the cool programmes and all. Nonetheless, it was perfectly fine for what I wanted to do.

After a month of checking email, web surfing, typing etc. the machine was starting to noticeably slow. I had kept up with all the newest virus and malware software. After 4 months I had to reformat and re install.

The computer was fine...until it was connected to the internet.

Windows ( -Vista) is fine until it hits the internet.

The average windows user does not know enough to keep their machine running well for an extended period of time. Emptying caches, cookies, defragging etc etc etc. are not common knowledge.
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Old Mar 26th, 2008, 02:04 PM   #37
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The average windows user does not know enough to keep their machine running well for an extended period of time. Emptying caches, cookies, defragging etc etc etc. are not common knowledge.
Worse, the average consumer likes to click those banner ads and install all that junk they peddle. I used my dad's computer to check for an important email and he had EIGHT added toolbars to his explorer browser!! EIGHT! There wasn't much room left to view webpages.... and they LIKED it that way! "No - don't remove them! I like the smilies...."
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Old Mar 26th, 2008, 02:17 PM   #38
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The most expensive version of Windows available for the consumer is 500$ CAD. Hardly thousands of dollars.
And that includes the computer???

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So you nver tried using the mouse on your Windows machine? Because you can simply drag an image out of a webpage
I never knew that. I tried a bunch of things when I had a Windoze box and I could never figure out how to do it. But then again, I don't think I ever tried the right-click on a mouse. I'd have to try it, if I had a Windoze box...

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So you never double clicked on the photo? That ACDSee (or some other app) takes over all file associations when you install it doesn't mean that Windows doesn't provide basic functionality.
Anytime that I double clicked on a picture file, it would start up IE. I always had to install ACDSee and go through that rigamarole. I never found a picture viewer in Windoze, though they did have NotePad.

Quote:
Microsoft Word is a real word processor which _can_ be purchased on it's own.
I never knew that, mostly because I had never seen it anywhere. I had bad experiences with Word - though I really never played with it very much. The last time I used it, I couldn't get tabs to work - everything was smashed over to the left side of the page when I printed, so I gave up because everyone I know that ran Windoze said that Windoze just runs that way, and I'd have to accept the fact that I would not be able to do anything that I would normally do with a computer.

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Word Perfect is too, although both are generally only carried in stores as part of their respective Office packages
I used to use Word Perfect, though the flaws detracted from the experience. I have not tried it since I had bad experiences with it rendering documents to different printers many years ago.

Quote:
Actually Safari, or rather WebKit/WebCore, is pretty much as ingrained into Mac OS X as IE is into Windows.
The difference being is that Safari is pretty usable, though it would be good if it could use addins like Firefox, so that I could block ads and flash video which seems to be all of the rage these days. Safari hasn't been updated in a while, and is getting a little long in the tooth (though it does work fine, so maybe that is why it hasn't been updated.) IE has a pretty crude looking interface, which I can put up with, but it has pretty poor response, which leads me to triple and quadruple clicking on everything.

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Then you haven't seen many Windows based systems.
I do not have much use, or should I say, I have no use for Windoze, so I do not have much experience with it. I had a Windoze machine to run one piece of software, and I used to have to reinstall Windoze pretty much on a monthy basis. I did noodle around with it, but I could never get it to run very well, nor did I have the patience to dedicate time to learning much about it. My Mac, on the other hand, was very easy to learn about, though it took some time to find the appropriate resources. I know that I haven't scratched the surface of what my Mac can do, but it does do everything that I throw at it, and does it well without muss or fuss.

Quote:
Actually taking the time to figure this stuff out rather than just failing once and writing it off will go a long way toward increasing your productivity/knowledge base/ability to troubleshoot further problems in the future.
Or I can just run my Macs and not have to become an expert at troubleshooting - and the time that I would spend mulling about fixing a Windoze box, I can spend more effectively doing my work on my Mac, without worrying whether or not the system will puke up its guts if I happen to plug in a camera or scanner. Nor do I have to worry about trashing all of my data if some spybot virus thing trashes the entire system just because I Googled something.
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Old Mar 26th, 2008, 02:52 PM   #39
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And that includes the computer???
You can get a whole computer for 500-600 bucks, including Windows. A half decent one will set you back around 800-1000$ or so, which is about what an inexpensive Mac will set you back.

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I never knew that. I tried a bunch of things when I had a Windoze box and I could never figure out how to do it. But then again, I don't think I ever tried the right-click on a mouse. I'd have to try it, if I had a Windoze box...
So my point is: if drag and drop out or right click and save as is intuitive on the Mac, why isn't it intuitive under Windows? In my experience, it's the perception that Windows is harder to deal with that holds people back from even bothering to try to figure these simple functions out.

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Anytime that I double clicked on a picture file, it would start up IE. I always had to install ACDSee and go through that rigamarole. I never found a picture viewer in Windoze, though they did have NotePad.
As with Mac OS X, right click on a file and "open with" will list all available program to open a file of whatever type.

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I never knew that, mostly because I had never seen it anywhere. I had bad experiences with Word - though I really never played with it very much. The last time I used it, I couldn't get tabs to work - everything was smashed over to the left side of the page when I printed, so I gave up because everyone I know that ran Windoze said that Windoze just runs that way, and I'd have to accept the fact that I would not be able to do anything that I would normally do with a computer.

I used to use Word Perfect, though the flaws detracted from the experience. I have not tried it since I had bad experiences with it rendering documents to different printers many years ago.
If someone says "it just does that" when you are describing somthing that does make sense? That's a sure sign they don't know what they are talking about. I can't tell you why the formatting would be smushed to one side when printing, but that doesn't make it normal behaviour.

Either way, a simple search would reveal other tools for the job for either platform.

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Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
The difference being is that Safari is pretty usable, though it would be good if it could use addins like Firefox, so that I could block ads and flash video which seems to be all of the rage these days. Safari hasn't been updated in a while, and is getting a little long in the tooth (though it does work fine, so maybe that is why it hasn't been updated.) IE has a pretty crude looking interface, which I can put up with, but it has pretty poor response, which leads me to triple and quadruple clicking on everything.
IE is actually pretty usable too. It's not my first choice, but it works just fine. It's not as standards as Firefox or Safari or most others, but then again most websites aren't either.

Oh, and Safari was updated just a few days ago. You may want to check your software update.


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I do not have much use, or should I say, I have no use for Windoze, so I do not have much experience with it. I had a Windoze machine to run one piece of software, and I used to have to reinstall Windoze pretty much on a monthy basis. I did noodle around with it, but I could never get it to run very well, nor did I have the patience to dedicate time to learning much about it. My Mac, on the other hand, was very easy to learn about, though it took some time to find the appropriate resources. I know that I haven't scratched the surface of what my Mac can do, but it does do everything that I throw at it, and does it well without muss or fuss.
I have a PC sitting beside me right now that's been running Windows XP for 3 years without needing re-install or any serious maintainence. I don't do anything special either. Again, what would be holding ypu back here is the unwillingness to gain some basic know how.

There are a lot of resources for Windows as well, the difference is that you were unwilling to take the time to find them.

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Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
Or I can just run my Macs and not have to become an expert at troubleshooting - and the time that I would spend mulling about fixing a Windoze box, I can spend more effectively doing my work on my Mac, without worrying whether or not the system will puke up its guts if I happen to plug in a camera or scanner. Nor do I have to worry about trashing all of my data if some spybot virus thing trashes the entire system just because I Googled something.
No one said you had to be an expert, I'm just saying that the more you know the better. In any situation, really, Mac or Windows. If you solve one issue you will be better equipped to solve the next.

I'm not denying that Mac OS X is more intuitive in a lot of ways, but all the basic metaphors of computing remain the same on any platform. There is going to be a learning curve if you go from Mac to Windows or from Windows to Mac. Again, it's a question of willingess to learn more than anything else.
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