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Old Nov 19th, 2009, 12:26 PM   #31
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You are incorrect. My opposition to the Lord's Prayer (and all superstitious nonsense) was based entirely my own nascent philosophical skepticism, a precocious disdain for authority, and, admittedly, a rather poorly developed sense of judgement about picking one's battles. But you can't expect 12-year-olds to be diplomatic.

While I was never steeped in the religiosity that imbues our culture, I arrived at my atheism from first principles, and have built my personal philosophy from there (albeit with very significant adoption of principles and logically coherent systems of analysis established by better thinkers than I, with which I have had the good fortune to become acquainted).

Cheers
Cripes.

Couldn't you have said "dumb luck like everyone else" and been done with it?
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Old Nov 19th, 2009, 12:28 PM   #32
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This just in from the ehMacLand Gazette --

"MACenstein's Monster refuses to work. Standing on a stack of obsolete Lisa computers, he was quoted as stating 'Work is the curse of the drinking class' as the ehMacLand Constabulary and Secret Police dragged him away to an undisclosed location, thought to be Re-Education Camp #7. Further details will follow as they are obtained."
I escaped.

But not before nearly being immunized against Satan (now known as Swine Flu).

I'm stocking up on Gin for the weekend and will try to put this whole ordeal where it belongs....

Somehwere over there, by the Spider plant.
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Old Nov 19th, 2009, 12:48 PM   #33
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I escaped.

But not before nearly being immunized against Satan (now known as Swine Flu).

I'm stocking up on Gin for the weekend and will try to put this whole ordeal where it belongs....

Somehwere over there, by the Spider plant.
Such is Life. Get some lime and I shall have a G&T with you this weekend, mon ami. Paix.

Long live Big Brother.
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Old Nov 19th, 2009, 01:19 PM   #34
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Lest we forget the monstrous death tolls of "godless" 20th Century Communism in Russia, Cambodia, etc...
I don't see how that is relevant to the apparent discord between the preaching of non-violence and the religiously motivated/justified commission of atrocity.

I certainly never made any claims about the behavior of non-religious people being exemplary. But given that there is no 'church' of atheism, or organization that has based it's genocidal violence on the principles of secular humanism, I don't think one can make a good case that the atrocities committed by people who weren't religious were somehow motivated by their lack of religion. In contrast, it's easy to find examples where atrocities have been committed in the name of various religions, and the irony is that leaders of any of these religions would paradoxically claim that theirs is a religion of peace. Curious.
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Old Nov 19th, 2009, 01:29 PM   #35
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I don't see how that is relevant to the apparent discord between the preaching of non-violence and the religiously motivated/justified commission of atrocity.

I certainly never made any claims about the behavior of non-religious people being exemplary. But given that there is no 'church' of atheism, or organization that has based it's genocidal violence on the principles of secular humanism, I don't think one can make a good case that the atrocities committed by people who weren't religious were somehow motivated by their lack of religion. In contrast, it's easy to find examples where atrocities have been committed in the name of various religions, and the irony is that leaders of any of these religions would paradoxically claim that theirs is a religion of peace. Curious.
I think the point being made was that religion is being used as an excuse to commit violent acts. In reality, it's just man being man. We're not as sophisticated as we'd like to believe.
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Old Nov 19th, 2009, 01:41 PM   #36
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I don't see how that is relevant to the apparent discord between the preaching of non-violence and the religiously motivated/justified commission of atrocity.

I certainly never made any claims about the behavior of non-religious people being exemplary. But given that there is no 'church' of atheism, or organization that has based it's genocidal violence on the principles of secular humanism, I don't think one can make a good case that the atrocities committed by people who weren't religious were somehow motivated by their lack of religion. In contrast, it's easy to find examples where atrocities have been committed in the name of various religions, and the irony is that leaders of any of these religions would paradoxically claim that theirs is a religion of peace. Curious.
bryanc, you mustn't dismiss atrocities of secular fanaticism. What about the religious persecution involved in the Salem witch trials? What about the actions of some of the atheist tyrants, most notably Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin plus a few others?
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Old Nov 19th, 2009, 01:53 PM   #37
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Old Nov 19th, 2009, 01:59 PM   #38
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I think the point being made was that religion is being used as an excuse to commit violent acts. In reality, it's just man being man. We're not as sophisticated as we'd like to believe.
+1 bryanc's biases are blinding him to the point being made. It is about power, religion is just one way in which humans can cloak their lust for power.
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Old Nov 19th, 2009, 02:22 PM   #39
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Oh joy.

Another kid who will grow up to become an adult who will make a big deal out of apparently very little. We always need those kind of people! </sarcasm>
The petty truly compliant of our world canít ever see the big picture, therefore, no one else should.
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Old Nov 19th, 2009, 03:16 PM   #40
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bryanc, you mustn't dismiss atrocities of secular fanaticism.
I'm not... it just has nothing to do with the paradox between religions that preach peace being used to justify violence.

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What about the religious persecution involved in the Salem witch trials?
This is a perfect example of religion being used to motivate and justify horrific violence against defenseless people.

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What about the actions of some of the atheist tyrants, most notably Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin?
Not that it's particularly relevant, but while Hitler may not have been orthodox in his beliefs, he was most certainly a theist. Somewhat surprisingly (to me anyway), it appears that Stalin was likely a theist as well.

But all of that is beside the point; I'm not arguing that atheists are all wonderful people and have never done anything bad. I'm simply agreeing with the observation that it's ironic that religions that preach peace are so often used to justify violence.

Last edited by bryanc; Nov 19th, 2009 at 06:53 PM.
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