Canada is Being Libelled as "Hell on Earth" by Republicans
I know people here have varying views of how well or badly the Canadian healthcare system is being run, but as someone who has experienced both, you gotta believe me: you have paradise up here compared to down south -- particularly if you aren't rich or under/unemployed!
First of all, the phrase "pre-existing condition" has no meaning here. That alone is a HUGE advantage over the insurance-based system. Secondly, your healthcare is "portable," meaning it's not tied to your job. In a recession particularly, I'm not sure the average Canadian understands what a HUGE difference this makes in your lives compared to those in the US who can least afford not to be covered.
Third, most provinces have "sliding scale" fees, meaning that if you can't afford coverage they will treat you anyway. I hate to say this, but even the "haven of last resort" -- the emergency room in the US -- has ignored this simple principle of medical compassion.
But even those of you who grouse about the wait times, or live in remote areas where services are hard to come by, or feel you are not getting the best value for money ... you would NOT BELIEVE how the Republicans and insurance companies down south portray life in Canada. My emails from friends in the US is just *amazing* in the malarkey they are forwarding to me for verification or debunking (a LOT of the latter, I must say!). You would think Canadian cities are blood-strewn hellscapes of semi-zombified seniors and the infirm to hear them tell it.
Recently, CNN tried to at least debunk the most spurious of the claims, made mostly by media whore Shona Holmes and professional liar Mitch McConnell, but in my view they fell WAY short of the whole story.
Luckily, the Ottawa Citizen was watching, and helpfully sets the record straight(er) in a handy article I urge you all to forward to your American friends:
For the sake of Canadian tourism and national honour (if nothing else), we NEED to fight the smears that frighten Americans into thinking Canada is a medical third-world country, and those of you who have experienced both systems in particular are much needed to counteract the propaganda. It's fine if the US doesn't want to adopt a Canadian-style system, but they don't need to LIE about us to defend their own status quo (or move to some other model, there ARE other models out there!).
I'd also encourage those of you who have experience with both healthcare systems to contact CNN, forward the OC article and suggest talking with you for a follow-up story. I suggest using the "news tips" function because this IS new/additional information as well as because a human being actually reads those and may pass it on to the right producers.
No system is perfect, but our experience (and those of our friends here) have been MUCH superior to what we got in the US. Unless you are in one of the more remote areas or otherwise ill-served in your particular community healthcare-wise, most of you should be VERY glad you're here and not there when it comes to medical needs.
Location: Windsor, gateway to the world, but I can't find the damn key!
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Chas, I don't think the average American cares about Canada or the Canadian Medical System....if they did they would understand the meaning of a central pay system. What is concerning is how the U.S. is actually trying to submarine something, it appears to me, that both parties want.
The BNA act specifies who is responsible for what....and medical is a provincial responsibility, although the Feds have had a significant hand in it [ to financial detriment in my opinion ] what I would like to know is, does the U.S. have a similar type of act which specifies which jurisdiction is responsible for what ( read health care )...we never hear about that here, all we hear about is the Federal side.
thanx Robert-paul
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The Americans are misreading the problems we have, and perverting them for their own political purposes.
The problem in Canada is not in funding, but the fact that the medical system has attracted a great number of leeches and political hacks that sap the strength out of what should be a world class system. We end up paying top dollar for services that don't make the grade, with grungy hospitals that dispense death because they have politicised workers in unions that protect the lethargic and apathetic, with a healthy amount of cash skimmed off for luxury luncheons and pet projects that have no place within public institutions. The constant leeching, and the petty politics that goes on, means that we end up paying top dollar for untimely and very much delayed health care. Sure, someones having a heart attack, they deal with that, at least if you don't live in places like Fort Erie or other places not on University Avenue in Toronto - but for most maladies, it can take months or years, or perhaps never, for problems to ever be attended to.
The problem in the US is that they have hospitals that are out to make huge profits, so yes, if one has cash, they can obtain the best treatments possible. If someone doesn't have cash, well, that's too bad because hard capitalism has no compassion.
Looking at Canada should really alarm Americans, not because of public funding for health care - but of the potential for the politicisation of heath care that saps money, where health care ends up in a distant third place behind the massive efforts placed into executives posturing and "looking good", and the endless petty feuds and empire building that go in in our system.
Our system is broken not because it is universal or publically funded, nor it is broken because it lacks the business sense of hard capitalism - but because the system is endlessly prostituted to the special interests and glad handlers that have found their way into the system - where actual health care is nothing compared to dishing out fat cash to the lazy who loaf behind their desks sufing the Internet or reading wedding magazines, or in endless union "grievances" where the lethargic are paid huge cash to accomplish nothing. What our system needs is a big kick in the ass, with actual doctors making scientifically based decisions of which the only purpose is to provide health care - rather than the current wastefilled system where CEOs score half million dollar salaries doing nothing but complaining that their hospitals are filthy because the Government won't provide them with brand new gold plated Taj Mahals every five years.
It doesn't help that in Ontario, the Government saw fit to start these LHINs - which were meant to look at ways of improving health care - but have proven themselves to be more savvy at empire building and catering to the whims of their favourite CEO cronies, and are hell bent on removing health care, not only from remote, distant northern communities that have no services, but in communities right here that have actual hospitals, simply because the buildings aren't big and impressive enough for them.
The system lacks accountability, and has long lurched into dysfunction and failure - even though the glad handlers continue to say that the problem is that we need even larger Taj Mahals that are far away from actual patients.
America, on the other hand, needs to have a health care system that doesn't bankrupt the citizen who happens to have broken a leg...
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It really is incredible the blatant lies I've seen being promoted on US TV lately. Not only is it outright offensive, it's truly unbelievable that any American could possibly be so stupid as to believe a word of it.
It really is incredible the blatant lies I've seen being promoted on US TV lately. Not only is it outright offensive, it's truly unbelievable that any American could possibly be so stupid as to believe a word of it.
Are you kidding?
These are the people who believe by the millions that Barack Hussein Obama is a Muslim, that he wasn't born in the United States (and can say this staring at a copy of his birth certificate)... who could not find Canada on a map, who probably could not find a map...
with respect to the millions of intelligent, reasonable, ecologically educated and caring other citizens of the United States.
It just seems like there are a whole lot more of the former category sometimes.
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I saw a clip on the news where an ontario lady was on a commercial talking about how she had to go to the US for care. I couldn't believe how construed the commercial was to make it seem like we were a 3rd world country for healthcare.
I do find it sad that people in my hometown of Sault Ste. Marie have to drive to Sudbury for cancer treatments (that's a 3.5 hour drive on a 2 lane highway). Something's not right about that and I think Evan hit on some key points.
That said, one of the reasons why I'll never leave this country is b/c of the healthcare. When my son fell off a dock last Sept 1st and had a tooth knocked ALL the way up, I didn't think of how much it was going to cost, I just got him to the hospital knowing he'd be looked after. Of course, in that situation, I probably wouldn't think of the cost right away, but i'm sure it would have crossed my mind at some point. (he's fine btw, the tooth is still half way down and I doubt it will descend all the way
But my point is that I like knowing I don't have to worry about getting care or having to pay for it. We do through our taxes yes, but up front, it doesn't hurt the individual or as Evan said, "doesn't bankrupt someone for a broken leg."
I do question whether or not a country like the US can implement successful health care for everyone. The US seems to h*ll bent on profits, profits, profits and they've not had a taxable system for healthcare that I can't see them buying into it - like it's already too late?
Another related topic could be how lifestyle habits could impact healthcare costs. Much like applying for life insurance, your premiums are higher if you smoke, are obese, engage in dangerous activities (ie. skydiving etc..). Should ppl who fit the previous pay a bit more for healthcare coverage? I personally think so, but I do believe it's a fine line b/c there are many factors involved (ie. for obesity, it could be a hormone reaction and not the fact someone simply overeats). It would be interesting to see if that has any bearing.
Anyhoo, hope I didn't redirect the original thread intent.
Location: Windsor, gateway to the world, but I can't find the damn key!
Posts: 4,233
HowEver: there is serious coin involved in this with the HMOs which, I think, Nixon helped set up as his solution to the U.S. healthcare problem. While they are an oligopoly, they have a significant lobby effort. And with the mid-terms coming up in less than 2 years, the local voter is going to believe what they see as credible sources. I'm waiting to see the National Enquirer's story on how a raft full of Canadians went over Niagara Falls in an effort to escape the wait times so they could get treatment in the U.S.
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Chas, I don't think the average American cares about Canada or the Canadian Medical System...
Under normal circumstances, this would be true. But I run a blog about US-Canada differences and education, and the uptick in GROSSLY misinformed and alarming email from US readers asking me to verify some really hair-standing-on-end horror stories they've been told via TV ads, mainstream media and such has really upticked in the last couple of weeks as the work on bringing the US into line with sanity (at least healthwise) ramps up ...
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if they did they would understand the meaning of a central pay system.
You're talking about people who don't even know what "socialism" means, but that doesn't stop them using it as a blunt instrument ...
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What is concerning is how the U.S. is actually trying to submarine something, it appears to me, that both parties want.
No, the Republicans definitely do NOT want *any* change from the current status quo. The two parties that want some kind of public option and health care reform are the Democrats and the vast majority of the American public.
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What I would like to know is, does the U.S. have a similar type of act which specifies which jurisdiction is responsible for what ( read health care )
No. Most states have minimal responsibility for health care at all (apart from licensing and inspections). There are usually one or two "public" (ie not-for-profit) hospitals in most large US towns (Orlando, where I lived, had one -- for a metro population of 2M!). These are paid for by the municipality primarily, with aid/grants from the states and federal level. States used to run mental hospitals and such (again with federal aid), but Reagan closed them all down and literally put the patients out on the streets.
In the United States, healthcare is (except for Medicaid and the poorest of the poor) a private responsibility. It's the patient's job to find -- and pay for -- healthcare solutions. This is why the insurance industry has become such a huge monster, able to ration care and dictate who lives and who dies (literally) and set conditions such as no coverage if you have a "pre-existing condition" (which has turned into a nonsense catch-all to deny coverage).
This would all be fine if the insurance companies were non-profit, but they aren't. They have a legal responsibility to maximise profit on behalf of the shareholders, so they have a fundamental conflict of interest I would have thought would be obvious to anyone with half a brain, but America loves capitalism more than it loves people.
Having a baby in the US costs between $15-25K assuming you don't have any serious complications, and insurance doesn't cover most of that because it's "elective." Just one example (though to be fair, you do get some tax breaks to soften the blow).
Unless you are absolutely destitute, there is little to nothing the government will do to help you with a serious medical issue. Medical expenses are responsible for about half of all personal bankruptcies in the US -- something I don't think Canadians can even dream of. Say you fell off the roof of your house while installing an antenna and couldn't work for a couple of months while you recuperate. In the US, you would likely be denied coverage (because it was your own fault), you wouldn't get any income supplement (since it wasn't a work-related accident) and thus lose your job, and you'd be faced with tens of thousands of dollars in hospital and PT bills. You might VERY WELL lose the very home you fell from unless you are rich. Can you imagine it?
These are the people who believe by the millions that Barack Hussein Obama is a Muslim, that he wasn't born in the United States (and can say this staring at a copy of his birth certificate)... who could not find Canada on a map, who probably could not find a map...
with respect to the millions of intelligent, reasonable, ecologically educated and caring other citizens of the United States.
No offense taken. There ARE millions of sensible Americans, possibly even a majority, but they are easily distracted and drowned out by "hot button" issues like race and gay marriage (orchestrated by the 24-hour news cycle, the worst thing to happen to the US since Reagan) and the nutballs who obsess on pettiness instead of the real issues.
It's largely the public's passivity to this manipulation and their gullibility to obviously fraudulent claims/sources/personalities that drove me to look for a country where the people are more sensible. And thus, I'm here.
I saw a clip on the news where an ontario lady was on a commercial talking about how she had to go to the US for care. I couldn't believe how construed the commercial was to make it seem like we were a 3rd world country for healthcare.
Worse than that: as the article makes clear, Ms. Holmes is blatantly lying about several aspects of her condition and her treatment to become a right-wing celebrity. Turns out she didn't actually have a brain tumor, but a cyst that did not require emergency treatment. Turns out she DID receive prompt attention when the condition was diagnosed, but OPTED to go to the US to receive quicker care (because, and this is key to the whole thing, she could afford to do so).
She also fails to mention in the ad that her treatment in the US cost her $97,000(US). Oh yeah, that little detail. I don't know how many of the members of this forum could deal with a surprise $97K bill without going into bankruptcy and losing everything we've worked for, but I would bet that the number of members who could swing that is pretty low.
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I do find it sad that people in my hometown of Sault Ste. Marie have to drive to Sudbury for cancer treatments (that's a 3.5 hour drive on a 2 lane highway).
Agreed, but have you seen those "Cancer Treatment Centers of America" ads on US TV? Again, they don't mention the cost in those ads, but let's just say your kids aren't going to college if you have to go to one of those places. Even with insurance.
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That said, one of the reasons why I'll never leave this country is b/c of the healthcare. When my son fell off a dock last Sept 1st and had a tooth knocked ALL the way up, I didn't think of how much it was going to cost, I just got him to the hospital knowing he'd be looked after.
The above sentence is really one of the keys to the whole thing, and bears repeating.
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Another related topic could be how lifestyle habits could impact healthcare costs. Much like applying for life insurance, your premiums are higher if you smoke, are obese, engage in dangerous activities (ie. skydiving etc..). Should ppl who fit the previous pay a bit more for healthcare coverage?
I would say yes to that as you did, with the qualifications you mentioned.
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