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National Health Care is about to CHANGE!

6K views 78 replies 19 participants last post by  smilecentral 
#1 ·
I checked back in here tonight expecting to see a VERY heated debate about today's monumental Supreme Court ruling about private health care access in Canada.

But..nothing. Only dead silence. Odd about that, eh?

Okay....for those of you who may have been in a distant cave for the past day or so, I will present a quick recap of the recent earth-shaking events:

Today, the Supreme Court recognised the consitutional right of a Quebec medical patient to recieve TIMELY medical attention for a serious condition. In other words....the Supreme Court has enshrined in law the rights of Quebecers to pay for their medical care at private clinics, if they so choose. And if they can afford to do so.

Which means that, at least in Quebec, a person who is suffering from an injury or medical condition no longer has to wait for weeks or months or years for the failing public health care system to get around to treating them. That person can now pay up front, and get the matter dealt with almost immediately. At a PRIVATE FOR-PROFIT clinic! :eek: ;)

Just like in most of Europe. Where lineups are pretty much a thing of the past. And where medical care is the very best in the world. And where per-capita medical care costs are actually the same...or even LESS than they are here in Canada.

Let's make no mistake about this...what we are talking about here is clearly a Canadian approved TWO-TIER health care system. Which has long been the rallying cry of derision for a lot of die-hard Left/Liberal types around here.

Paul Martin himself has loudly declared that this is something he will FIGHT against while he is in power. (Despite the fact that Paul Martin and his whole family use private for-profit medical care exclusively. As did Jean Chretien and HIS whole family. Stephen Harper and his clan use ONLY public hospitals, BTW).

Anyone care to comment on this? Anyone care to explain to all the rest of us why Quebec should be able to have this parallel private/public system and no waiting lines while all of the rest of us suffer in pain for months or years? Also care to explain how this new parallel system will NOT be coming to a "Province near you?" Rather soon?

This should be interesting. To say the least. ;) :D
 
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#2 ·
MacNutt, check over at www.macmagic.ca...

ohh wait, you can't post there.... no wonder it's more civilized....
(just joking my friend)

Sorry MacNutt - you are grossly misinformed about the situation in Quebec. We have some of the worse waiting lines and poorest health care in Canada.
Get informed and please try again.
 
#3 ·
Before anyone gets into the 'right to access' argument:

Healthcare is not just about treating the symptoms, it's about prevention too.
That being said, without privatising [sp?] healthcare, every Canadian should then have the right to consume organic produce at a price equal to other produce, they should have the right to pursue 'alternative' healthcare without additional costs to the patient, they should have the right to drink clean water... and so on.

I do hope that this is a step in the right direction. I hope that it does, in fact, push the rest of theprovinces to find ways to enrich our failing, unsustatinable health care system, but I am truly afraid that it won't remedy the problem at all.

Cheers
Bo
 
#4 ·
ArtistSeries said:
MacNutt, check over at www.macmagic.ca...

ohh wait, you can't post there.... no wonder it's more civilized....
(just joking my friend)

Sorry MacNutt - you are grossly misinformed about the situation in Quebec. We have some of the worse waiting lines and poorest health care in Canada.
Get informed and please try again.
Considering the fact that the judgement has just come down...I don't doubt that you still have some pretty long lineups.

And you might just want to get a bit more "informed" yourself. This decision changes EVERYTHING!

Watch and see. ;)
 
#5 ·
BTW...I am at "magic" on occasion. Lots of people drop by there while using pseudonyms. But I'm not there very often. It's a bit slow...to say the least.

I like it here much better. (I use a PC once in a while..but I prefer a Mac. Same thing.) :D
 
#6 ·
Let's get some disinformation that I'm expecting out of the way first Mr. MacNutt.
The World Health Organization ranks Canada's health system 30th in the world and the United States 37th. France, which allows private services to complement its universal system, is ranked first.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=834633&page=3


- Quebec still has long lineups - there has been no magic-no more lineups- wizard that came overnight and cured all that.

- This blow only affects medically necessary services. Quebec is already well ahead in many private heath care ventures.

- no political party advocates a two-tier health system.
 
#7 ·
I don't ever recall comparing our system to the one in the USA. Nor do I advocate adopting a US-style health care system here in Canada. Never have.

But I do think that, now that this Supreme Court decision has been handed down, we are now heading toward a European style system that has parallel private and public delivery of publicly funded health care. This means private hospitals and private clinics. For-profit.

And the Big Unions would not always be a part of it. Nor would they be able to strike and shut the whole thing down, since they wouldn't have total coverage of all the labor force.

A parallel system that includes for-profit hospitals and clinics that operate freely in each province would be a HUGE change for Canada.

One that Paul Martin has publicly said he will fight to the death to prevent. (while using just such a system himself, BTW).

The Labor/NDP have been dead set against this since day one, as well. And the NDP is pretty much all that's standing between Paul Martin and political oblivion these days. Without the NDP, Martin's Liberals would be sunk the day after tomorrow.

I wonder what sort of fragile eggshells Paul Martin will have to walk over in order to please everyone THIS time?

Should be interesting. To say the least. ;) :D
 
#8 ·
I'll say this: I'll welcome any change at this point -- my wife and I had to wait approx. 5 years to find a family doctor... only to finally settle for one in Ontario (which means we pay for everything because this one doesn't accept QC health cards.) The Quebec healthcare system will only reimburse around 55% of the amount spent (because they're bastards... you'll get more if you're lucky.) When we had to get blood-work done, my reimbursement cheque, for the same thing mind you, was 15 dollars less than my wife's. We still can't find a pediatrician for our soon to be born son, so in the meantime we have to, again, settle for going to walk-in clinics for whatever problems he'll have.

We wanted to have our son born on Ottawa, but alas, that would have cost us $1100 after the reimbursement. Wow. Universal healthcare at best.

So much for free healthcare.
 
#9 ·
Our medicare has been in decline for far too many years now. And the very worst problem we have? Waiting lists. YEARS of waiting for sick and dying people.

Somewhere there is middle ground where the private sector can provide minor procedures to reduce that wait time so Canadians can get timely health services.

The government now must be innovative enough to develop a firm policy on who can do what, where and when. They also must strictly regulate health delivery so that no private health care giver is paid by anyone but the government of the province in which it operates, and paid at fees acceptable to that government as well.

Think of it as reverse tender where the government offer $2000 for a knee replacement procedure. If private companies can make money doing the procedure, why not?

Until Canadians take off their blinders, they cannot see that simple plan will benefit all of us.

:)
 
#10 ·
I personally agree with this "middle ground" approach that Sinc talks about in his last posting. I worry about the migration of doctor's, especially specialists, into the private sector, leaving the public health care system with longer wait times. Still, just as I would not want to be restricted as to where I went to work, I can't see forcing doctors to remain in the public health care system.
 
#11 ·
Who's investing in private medicare?

The debate about the quality of care is a constant cover for those investing in private health care with an expectation of great profit.

If the so called second tier cannot bill the public system in whole or in part and the revenues to the public system remain intact there would be no problem. What are the chances?

The idea that since public services always lose money then let a private entrepreneur do it and make a profit while at it, makes me quake. The private entrepreneur will carve off the most profitable service delivery to the most well healed client and leave the dross to the public system, and receive kudos from his fellows, encouragement from his investors and accolades from the naive.
 
#12 ·
« MannyP Design » said:
We wanted to have our son born on Ottawa, but alas, that would have cost us $1100 after the reimbursement. Wow. Universal healthcare at best.
This is nothing compared to how much it is in the US. So how would you propose it be improved and how to you think a two tier system will help your situation?
 
#13 ·
ArtistSeries said:
This is nothing compared to how much it is in the US. So how would you propose it be improved and how to you think a two tier system will help your situation?
If this was the U.S. my wife and I would have been fully covered as we both have jobs that have/would have benefits including medical coverage. End of story.

Two tier system would effectively take some of the stress and cost of the current system is going through. What would you propose -- do nothing at all? Canadians are taxes up the a$$ yet our healthcare is abysmal. What are we doing wrong compared to other countries?

(Don't answer that MacNutt -- I already know.) ;)
 
#14 ·
Equality

I like a universal system where everyone gets the same treatment. A two-tier system means that the rich deserve and will get better medical services because they can pay for it.

I don't think someone should get better medical services than another just because they are wealthier. And vis versa, a less well off individual shouldn't get inferior health care.

Wait times are long. Finding a doctor is difficult. Even when you find one, keeping one is difficult.

I'm not sure what the solutions are. I'm pretty sure though that every one has the right to timely health care... though I don't think we have it yet. I'm not even sure we have a "universal" system if they are all administered differently in each of the provinces.
 
#15 ·
« MannyP Design » said:
If this was the U.S. my wife and I would have been fully covered as we both have jobs that have/would have benefits including medical coverage. End of story.
At least in Canada, it doesn't matter, or is not supposed to matter if you have a job or not. If it's a good job with good benefits or not. In the US, many people go without coverage. Many employers in the US cite health care as a cost to them that must be cut... GM anybody. Employers don't want to provide these benefits.

I like a system where it doesn't matter who I work for. Where it doesn't matter if I have a job. Where it doesn't matter how much I make. Where I am a equal citizen, a human being with an equal right to equal care. We take care of each other, not just ourselves.
 
#16 ·
« MannyP Design » said:
If this was the U.S. my wife and I would have been fully covered as we both have jobs that have/would have benefits including medical coverage. End of story.
Your montly insurance fees would pay for that, yes. But can you afford 1000$ a month insurance premiums?
Then her stay in the hospital would be limited to half a day. Your wife would be back to work in less than a week. And speaking of procedures they would select the one they want to give your wife that would save the money.
 
#17 ·
Paul -- that's the problem. We're not supposed to have to pay, yet If I can't get a pediatrist for my son in Quebec, I will have to go to Ottawa where I will pay anyway. Where's the benefit in that? Where's the universal healthcare? We've paid over 300 dollars (each so far) for tests and medical-related appointments that were needed... how is this better than the U.S.?

EDIT: AS: I can guarantee you that if we lived in the U.S., we'd be making a lot more money and have better coverage. Enough to guarantee better healthcare than what we're getting here... not to mention spend less time waiting.

I'd like to see some sources to the premiums you're saying U.S. folk have to pay. I have several friends here reading this who think you're insane.
 
#18 ·
Dr.G. said:
I personally agree with this "middle ground" approach that Sinc talks about in his last posting. I worry about the migration of doctor's, especially specialists, into the private sector, leaving the public health care system with longer wait times. Still, just as I would not want to be restricted as to where I went to work, I can't see forcing doctors to remain in the public health care system.
Sinc's solution is to outsource. That's not a middle ground.

In Quebec the cost of a doctor's studies are funded by my tax dollars. He should stay in the province for a little while. Try getting a MD in the US, and you will see why it's so expensive there.
 
#19 ·
MannyP, yes it appears we don't have "universal" heath care. It shouldn't matter if I'm I'm from Newfoundland and I get health care services in British Columbia, Manitoba, Ontario, etc. No one should be expected to pay extra fees because provinces won't reimburse other provinces 100%.

But as for your particular issue, if you've been living in Ontario for a while and have been paying taxes there, presumbably wouldn't you have some sort of Ontario health card/plan?
 
#20 ·
Who pays for the HMO?

I'd like to see some sources to the premiums you're saying U.S. folk have to pay. I have several friends here reading this who think you're insane.
Who pays for the HMO if you don't have a job? Who pays for your health benefits if you work at a crappy WalMart job? I have an online buddy who's been working at a Walmart in Wisconsin for the past seven years. I think the government actually pays most of his benefits, because you know WallyMart, they don't really give out great benefits. Even then, he still has to pay out of pocket for some things.
 
#21 ·
That's the problem, I don't live in Ontario -- I live in the Gatineau-Outouais region (which is on the border of Quebec/Ontario) where it's impossible to get a family doctor (as well as a pediatrist.) We have to go to Ottawa, because there's where we could find a family doctor. I have to pay $35 for every visit, and get 1/2 back from the Quebec government.

Yay for free healthcare.
 
#22 ·
One point I heard on the news from a doctor kinda made sense. He was saying if we open up to private health care than waiting times will decrease because those who can afford it probably wont wait.

The only problem is it may end up swinging all the way to the private side some day. I just worry about poor people who may get stuck with more burdens if they can't get jobs with good health care. You hear of people in the States that can't even afford medication cause they need to eat. That is a terrible inhumane way to treat people in the ritchest country in the world.

Our health care sucks. My wife is a nurse and can attribute to how bad it really is. I work in the mental health field and the government has cut funding in almost every community based organizations. It seems like we have a backward system. Wait until it's to late and then help people which costs more.

We need to focus on prevention, treatment and putting money into the most important area in all our lives our health at least in my opinon. What are we paying high taxes for when our health care has went down the toilet over the last decade or longer.

Sure you can live in the Sates and get a good job and have good benefits but what about the people that don't have good jobs. Then they get sick in the long run due to not being able to get proper medical treatment. In the long run the government pays more.

Im not completely against private health care. Reducing waitng times, having an option, but that still doesn't fix the free health care we are intitled to. Health care is something that Tommy Douglas fought hard to have and I am sure he is rolling in his grave. Instead of giving corporations tax free billon dollar loans with our money they should be putting it into hospitals and community agencies that in the long run help to prevent long term ilness. Im not saying the Government shouldn't help our economy but we as citizens need to come first.

Ive just so tired of the Liberals, NDP, Con's, and all the other parties that break promises. We seem to live in the era of bs.
 
#24 ·
Paul, sorry to tell you "reality check", but there are 45+ million Americans without any sort of health care benefits. If I am working at Walmart, and they don't have a medical plan (I cannot say if they do or do not, so I am just using this as a hypothetical situation), but I am working for a wage, then I am not entitled to either Medicare or Medicaid. These are government supports for those on social assistance programs (i.e., people not working receive help under Medicaid) and those on Social Security (i.e., those people over 65, or receiving Social Security benefits receive Medicare). So, if you work for a company that cannot or will not provide any sort of health insurance coverage, and you cannot afford to pay for this insurance (e.g., Blue Cross) on your own, you are out of luck. This was a big issue in the 2004 presidential election, and while Bush made some vague promises, the billions for the war in Iraq have dashed any sort of help for these 45+ million uninsured persons in the US.
 
#26 ·
ArtistSeries said:
Sinc's solution is to outsource. That's not a middle ground.
If a compromise of delivering services by the private sector under government supervision is not middle ground, then what is?

It will reduce waiting lines for sure.

The court's decision is a timely warning to government that unless they address long waiting lines, the public has the right to seek other solutions.

Middle ground solutions like outsourcing. :)
 
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