Yes hell does appear to be freezing over

MacDoc · Jun 8th, 2005, 03:07 PM

	Quote:
	New poll gives Liberals big boost NDP now leads Tories among Ontarians, women ALEXANDER PANETTA CANADIAN PRESS OTTAWA - The Liberals had a 14-point lead over the Conservatives in popular support, suggests a new poll taken earlier this month. The Decima survey showed the Liberals with 37 per cent support and the Tories with 23 per cent, in a virtual dead heat with the NDP at 21 per cent. The poll of 1,000 respondents was conducted June 2-5. Decima said the results are accurate to within plus or minus 3.1 percentage points, 19 times out of 20. The survey, released to The Canadian Press, indicated the New Democrats held small leads over the Tories in Ontario, among women, among single people and with voters under age 34. The results are less reliable for these smaller samples. The Ontario results suggested the Liberals held a 26-percentage-point advantage over the Tories in the province. The Grits were at 48 per cent, the NDP was at 24 and the Conservatives held 22 per cent in Canada's largest province. "The trend lines — especially in Ontario — are definitely better for the Liberal party than they were several weeks ago, no question about that," said Bruce Anderson, head of Decima Research Inc. The Liberals have bounced back in a series of polls after hitting lows amid a daily stream of revelations at the sponsorship inquiry. The Conservatives, however, had even less support than they did before Jean Brault's shocking testimony about corruption in Liberal ranks, the poll suggests. But Liberals shouldn't feel too triumphant, Anderson warned. The swings suggest a temperamental electorate, and these latest Decima numbers would still likely give the Liberals only a minority government. "(These are) not unprecedented levels of support for the Liberal party," Anderson said. "I would say it's more reasonable to assume that they're fragile rather than sturdy levels of support because of the volatility we've seen." Anderson blamed the Tories' poor showing on a strategy that has been "out of sync" with the desires of the electorate. In their efforts to take down the government, the Tories found themselves running against voters who didn't want an election and liked the NDP-inspired changes to the federal budget. Parliament was paralysed for a few days as the Tories and Bloc Quebecois boycotted to protest the Liberals' clinging to power. "During the same period, the NDP has been urging that the House (of Commons) keep working, that it expand its agenda beyond ... corruption, and has been promoting social spending over corporate tax cuts," Anderson said. The Tories appear unlikely to try forcing an election again this spring, as MPs suggest the party will spend the summer shaping policy and building popular support. That would be in keeping with what voters want, the Decima poll suggests. Only 12 per cent of respondents said the Tories should renew their takedown effort, compared with 76 per cent who said they should wait.

Would it not be ironic if some disaffected Liberals now brought the government down.

	Quote:
	Unhappy Liberals hold government's fate: Harper By TERRY WEBER Wednesday, June 8, 2005 Updated at 1:10 PM EDT Globe and Mail Update The fate of the government lies in the hands of disgruntled Liberals, not opposition parties, when upcoming confidence votes reach Parliament next week, Conservative Leader Stephen Harper said Wednesday

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...tory/National/

SOMEBODY is going to write a book about this last year in Canadian politics.........and no one will beleive it.

The Doug · Jun 8th, 2005, 04:49 PM

Tee hee.

LunaticFringe · Jun 8th, 2005, 04:53 PM

Well, I fit in with that survey. Under 35, female and I vote NDP. I'd vote for the Communist party as long as it isn't Liberal or PC.
*is sick of two party system*

It might be fun to have a Liberal/NDP minority gov't for a while. I may vote NDP but I'm not idealistic enough to think that they'll ever get a majority gov't....I can hope though.

GratuitousApplesauce · Jun 8th, 2005, 05:04 PM

If I'm not mistaken, isn't that Aislin cartoon a reference to the famous photo of Robert Stanfield fumbling a football? I was only a lad at the time but wasn't that photo credited with costing him a lot of support against the youthful, dashing Trudeau?

Of course, Harper is no Robert Stanfield. Harper's fumble is based on his lack of character, whereas Stanfield's was only an awkward physical moment captured on film. Stanfield had more character in his pinky than Harper.

And of course, Martin is certainly no Pierre Elliot Trudeau, character-wise either.

Hey LunaticFringe, vote for proportional representation when it comes your way and you may get a chance at ditching the two party system. I think we're all sick of it.

miguelsanchez · Jun 8th, 2005, 05:33 PM

to me, it looks like harper had just been nailed in the privates with the football, a la "the longest yard" (original & remake).

either way, it looks like he's going down...

LunaticFringe · Jun 8th, 2005, 05:47 PM

	Quote:			Originally Posted by GratuitousApplesauce
	Hey LunaticFringe, vote for proportional representation when it comes your way and you may get a chance at ditching the two party system. I think we're all sick of it.

What be this proportional representation thing of which you speak? You have piqued my curiosity...

GratuitousApplesauce · Jun 8th, 2005, 05:57 PM

I just had to look it up.

	Quote:
	In the federal election of 1974, a controversial photo of Stanfield fumbling a football catch at a political event became one of the defining images of his later career, contrasting badly against the more vibrant and youthful image presented by Liberal leader Pierre Trudeau. To this day, Canadian political commentators still point to this incident as one of Canada's foremost examples of "image politics", because this one photo was chosen for the front pages of newspapers across Canada even though many other photos of Stanfield (in fact, a fairly athletic man for his age) catching the same football were also available.

Rob · Jun 8th, 2005, 06:21 PM

When I first looked at the cartoon I laughed out loud since it was obviously a brilliant takeoff of that old Bob Stanfield shot. I guess that means I'm waaay over the hill now.

GratuitousApplesauce · Jun 8th, 2005, 06:28 PM

	Quote:			Originally Posted by LunaticFringe
	What be this proportional representation thing of which you speak? You have piqued my curiosity...

Proportional representation means is an electoral system that elects political representatives based on the proportion of the popular vote that they or their party receives. This is different than our current winner-take-all or first past the post system, where the party winning may have a parliamentary seat total not even close to what their share of the popular vote is.

First place to look: Fair Vote Canada
They have a section that explains the basics on PR: About Fair Voting

	Quote:
	Representative democracy is a simple concept. Every citizen wins the right to representation. The majority win the right to make decisions. Do Canadians actually have representative democracy? In the last federal election, more than a half-million Green Party voters across the country elected no one. Meanwhile, fewer than a half-million Liberal voters in Atlantic Canada alone elected 23 MPs. Saskatchewan voters elected 11 Conservative MPs and Quebec elected none, even though almost twice as many voted Conservative in Quebec. In the prairie provinces, Liberals cast half as many votes as Conservatives, but elected only one-seventh as many MPs. So much for voter equality and the right to representation.

BC just went through a citizens assembly process followed by a referendum about whether to switch to a system of PR called the Single Transferable Vote (STV). Even with no funds for publicity, in the middle of a provincial election and relying only on grassroots supporters, last month BC citizens voted by a margin of 57.7% saying YES to STV. Unfortunately the measure required 60% for automatic implementation according to the legislation. But the landslide vote in favour of STV and against first past the post means that proportional representation is on the agenda here big time.

A Citizen's Assembly similar to BC's is coming to Ontario and I believe your referendum is scheduled for 2007 (?) If you're interested in this, get informed and get involved now. It's amazing what a few hundred committed people were able to accomplish in BC. There's a huge public appetite for electoral reform right now and Ontario isn't the only other province looking into this.

Here's a link to Fair Vote Ontario

Here's a Wikipedia link to a general page on PR.

GratuitousApplesauce · Jun 8th, 2005, 06:42 PM

I apologize for dragging this thread off-topic with my PR rant, (jes, cain't hep myself when it comes to PR

), so to somewhat make amends, I'd like to ask; under another first past the post election, how would the votes for Libs 37%, Cons 23% and NDP 21%, come out in terms of Ontario MP numbers?

Of course under PR, it would be about 37-23-21, if the poll numbers are correct, but I'm assuming that we'll have a few more unfair elections before we get PR nationally.

Jun 8th, 2005, 05:33 PM	#5
miguelsanchez Full Citizen Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: toronto Posts: 696	to me, it looks like harper had just been nailed in the privates with the football, a la "the longest yard" (original & remake). either way, it looks like he's going down... Last edited by miguelsanchez; Jun 8th, 2005 at 10:22 PM.

Jun 8th, 2005, 06:21 PM	#8
Rob Honourable Citizen Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Close to Windsor, Ont. Posts: 1,503	When I first looked at the cartoon I laughed out loud since it was obviously a brilliant takeoff of that old Bob Stanfield shot. I guess that means I'm waaay over the hill now. __________________ Real Macsters don't repair permissions. Opinions are like toothbrushes. Everybody has one, so there's no need to share. - Red Green

Jun 8th, 2005, 06:42 PM	#10
GratuitousApplesauce stewed 'n' puréed Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Southern Gulf Isles BC Posts: 4,416	I apologize for dragging this thread off-topic with my PR rant, (jes, cain't hep myself when it comes to PR ), so to somewhat make amends, I'd like to ask; under another first past the post election, how would the votes for Libs 37%, Cons 23% and NDP 21%, come out in terms of Ontario MP numbers? Of course under PR, it would be about 37-23-21, if the poll numbers are correct, but I'm assuming that we'll have a few more unfair elections before we get PR nationally. Last edited by GratuitousApplesauce; Jun 8th, 2005 at 06:46 PM. Reason: typo

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Jun 8th, 2005, 04:49 PM	#2
The Doug Nosce Te Ipsum Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dulcis Domus Posts: 7,137	Tee hee.

Jun 8th, 2005, 04:53 PM	#3
LunaticFringe New Neighbour Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Hint: Original Capital of Canada Posts: 10	Well, I fit in with that survey. Under 35, female and I vote NDP. I'd vote for the Communist party as long as it isn't Liberal or PC. is sick of two party system It might be fun to have a Liberal/NDP minority gov't for a while. I may vote NDP but I'm not idealistic enough to think that they'll ever get a majority gov't....I can hope though.

Jun 8th, 2005, 05:04 PM	#4
GratuitousApplesauce stewed 'n' puréed Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Southern Gulf Isles BC Posts: 4,416	If I'm not mistaken, isn't that Aislin cartoon a reference to the famous photo of Robert Stanfield fumbling a football? I was only a lad at the time but wasn't that photo credited with costing him a lot of support against the youthful, dashing Trudeau? Of course, Harper is no Robert Stanfield. Harper's fumble is based on his lack of character, whereas Stanfield's was only an awkward physical moment captured on film. Stanfield had more character in his pinky than Harper. And of course, Martin is certainly no Pierre Elliot Trudeau, character-wise either. Hey LunaticFringe, vote for proportional representation when it comes your way and you may get a chance at ditching the two party system. I think we're all sick of it.