Yes hell does appear to be freezing over

elmer

I realized that when I posted the post you just quoted I was merely directing your attention to it in case you had already turned the page.Are you saying that wearing a wire and releasing these tapes is a low road? How so?
Even if Grewal called the Liberals first, even if he's as dirty as they are, doesn't change what's in those tapes - the truth about how this Liberal government does business.

MacNutt

Posterboy wrote (I've taken a slight liberty with this)
"It's true that this isn't the first corner that the Liberals have found themselves backed into, but at the same time it's also true that the Conservatives have not been able to gain any momentum from any of the opportunities that have basically been handed to them on silver platters.

Given the scope of some of the opportunites they've had, I see only three real reasons this can be so:

a) they're inept
b) enough of the country doesn't agree with their policies they'd rather stick with the devil they know
c) some people are so terribly frightened by the fear-mongering and misinformation that they are still willing to back a party that is completely devoid of ideas and is also well known for widespread corruption

So which is it?"

Ummmmm....I'd take "c".

GratuitousApplesauce

elmer, the Grewal affair all detailed in disgusting technicolour detail on this blog Buckets of Grewal.

I think that in this case, the statements by Dosanjh and Murphy, are just business-as-usual, yes unethical, as business-as-usual is, but not illegal, or any different than what any other politicians do, day in and day out.

Grewal's statements, Harper's backing of this car wreck and the likelihood that the tapes were doctored, possibly while in the hands of the Conservative party, looks bad and is potentially illegal. It completely destroys Harper's holier-than-thou claim that somehow the Cons were any different than Liberals on ethics and the effect is starting to be shown in the public opinion polls.

This isn't just fear-mongering, as MacNutt claims, this is the realization by Canadians that the power mongers in the Cons are no different than the power mongers within the Liberal ranks. The main difference is that they espouse a more neo-con political philosophy that is out of step with what most Canadians believe.

As I've said before on this board, merely changing teams isn't going to remove degenerate power whores from our governments. We need to create an environment where Canadian citizens tell their government what to do, not the other way around. This is almost impossible under our current electoral system, which is why I think that electoral reform is needed now.

elmer

GA, what is the original source for "the likelihood that the tapes were doctored, possibly while in the hands of the Conservative party"? I would like to know how likely this is. (edit: looking at that blog I see this is complicated - I won't ask you to repeat everything there)
And in your opinion, do you think that the original, un-doctored tapes would show Murphy as ethical?

In any case, if this is business as usual for all politicians, what kind of statement is a voter making by knowingly voting for these scumbags? I've always heard "politicians are unethical", but it's different when it's in your face.

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MacNutt

The "wearing of wires"...or the fear of someone doing just this...is not confined to Grewal's attempt to expose the corrupt Liberals. As you may remember, this subject also came up during the testimonies at the Gomery Inquiry.

And, as much as many people would like to paint the Conservatives with the same tainted brush as the corrupt and morally bankrupt Liberals...I'd just like to point out one simple fact:

Unlike the Liberals, Stephen Harper and Co. haven't ever stolen a single dime of Canadian tax money. They have sworn to expose the corruption in the system and have also told us that they will change the Canadian political system to make it more democratic and less dictatorial (triple E senate).

Which should make it much harder for this sort of corruption to ever happen again.

But we should just bite the bullet and re-elect the Liberals...right?

GratuitousApplesauce

All that info is on the Buckets of Grewal blog. It's very well documented with lots of sources and links.

I wouldn't vote for the Libs or the Cons, right now, and I never have anyway. MacNutt says that the Cons haven't stolen a dime - right, not yet! If MacNutt had got his wish last spring, we might have seen a slimy character like Gurmant Grewal in charge of some ministry doling out contracts for profit.

My point is that it's up to us to keep them honest. If someone thinks that just changing up the players and putting in a new team of the same old will magically change things, I think that would be very naive. By the way, MacNutt's support for the Cons is completely based on his neo-con political orientation. For him corruption is just a convenient issue for banging the drum.

It was also a convenient issue for Harper. Suddenly his gleaming armour doesn't look so shiny. As the cartoon at the top of this thread shows, he's fumbled the ball.

MacNutt

Interesting how you fling labels around GA.

I support a provincial Liberal government. I'm all in favor of the current British Labour Party...if I lived there, I'd be voting Labour for sure.

But I'm a right-wing fanatic, according to you.

Also according to you, the Conservatives would be stealing us blind at the very first opportunity. Just like the federal Liberals have been doing for so many years.

But you haven't a shred of evidence to back this up.

Someone here is a fanatic all right. Looked in the mirror lately?

used to be jwoodget

MacNutt, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Asking GA for evidence to back up something he posted....... when you've never deemed it necessary to respond in kind. Perhaps your absence may have erased your memory

I think we are all guilty of painting all members of each party with the same brush. I do think there are some genuine MPs but its also clear that the Liberals have no monopoly on slime-balls - no surprise really.

elmer

Looked at the edits between the two versions of the tapes that were made public, highlighted on that blog; makes it worse for Grewal but not better for Murphy. Also the Conservative's expert said that one tape was not doctored in his opinion. As far as I can tell, the supposedly clean tape is the one I linked directly to before - based on only that one I would like to have Murphy and Martin removed.
I have the same gut reaction as GratuitousApplesauce when I hear long-time federal Conservative supporters say anything about the revelations of the past year - don't tell me that taking out the bad guys won't just put new bad guys in their place, I'm not that naive.
The only sure thing is that Liberal supporters need to be much much louder in condemning the corruption in the Liberal party.
Maybe we also need to consider how long this one party's been in office, and how it makes us accomplices if we keep them in.

I still fear a Conservative majority and the things Harper might do. So I have to consider my options when it comes to election day. But until then lets not hear any apologies for the Liberal government.

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GratuitousApplesauce

Yep this so-called “looney lefty” has learned from the best. Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.
Anybody who lives in BC will tell you that the BC Liberals have far more in common with the federal neo-Cons philosophically than with the federal Libs. As has been pointed out a million times on this board, the BC Liberals are not connected officially with the federal Libs and the name is simply the result of a hostile take over by the ousted remnants of the old free enterprise right wing Social Credit party. Nice try, though.
No, I said neo-con (short for neo-conservative). This is well documented on this board in about 95% of your 7,700-odd posts. But if you prefer right-wing fanatic, I’m sure we can go with that.
Putting words in my mouth, old pal. Tsk, tsk.

What I said, in this thread and many others, is that there are people within all party’s that are degenerate power whores, as the Grewal incident has shown. Our political system breeds them and they easily rise to power, wherever power is concentrated. History has shown that changing the players will give us a similar result. What I said was, the tarnish is off Mr. Harper’s holier-than-thou stance.

So based on this straw man argument, I now have to provide evidence to a claim I didn’t make?? Nice tactic, bad argument, Mr. MacNutt.
Since I didn’t actually call you a fanatic, or call you anything other than a neo-conservative, which I think is obvious, why exactly should I be looking in the mirror? But I see, that you are now calling me a fanatic. Hmmm ... I guess we’re back to that label-flinging thing again, aren't we. Interesting.
Thank you, UTBJW. Exactly.