Yes hell does appear to be freezing over

GratuitousApplesauce

Good one, PB!

You know that the numbers above; Libs 37%, Cons 23%, NDP 21%, are national numbers, don't you MacNutt? The Ontario numbers are even worse for your beloved neo-Cons. Libs 48%, NDP 24%, Cons 22%. Gee, 48% is even more than your neo-con BC Libs got to win their "huge" mandate here last month.

So tell us all how this equates to "The rest of the country pretty much making up their minds about the corrupt Liberals." Has it occurred to you that many in this country just might be making up their minds about a certain bucket of Grewal and the saintly Harper's lack of judgement in backing this unhinged character and in franticly trying to force an unnecessary election that most did not want?

So now you're depending on the NDP to scuttle the Liberal government? Don't hold your breath, ol' buddy.

Politics make strange bedfellows, as they say. For the neo-Cons, first it's the socialist, separitist Bloc now they're hoping for the "looney lefty" NDP.

MacNutt

If you look a bit closer at all of those polls you will almost always hear the pollsters remarking about "how volatile" the electaorate is right now. And anger at the Liberals is not tempered by the fact that many are so brainwashed that they can't imagine a conservative government in power. (LOTS of Canadians claim that they can't see themselves voting "PC"...even though the PC party is long gone. Such is the level of misinformation out there right now.)

And GA...my previous question remains....

If Paul Martin DOES actively challenge this monumental ruling by the Canadian Supreme Court (the one that allows privatised medical care to go unchallenged in Quebec) in order to keep the NDP happy and keep them onside in the upcoming votes. (And Jack Layton has just said that this would be his latest "price").

THEN...Martin will also have to actively begin to fine the province of Quebec for allowing so many current private clinics within its borders in contravention of the Universal health care act. The same way the Feds now penalise many other provinces for allowing limited private health care within their borders (currently Quebec gets away scot free, but this has brought it all out into the light. Much the same way that the sponsorship scandal exposed the high-level Liberal corruption in Quebec to everyone else. NOW they have to DO something about it).

And Martin will have to overrule the Canadian Supreme Court in order to put a stop to this. Needless to say...this will not go down very well with a whole lot of people.

Including Paul Martin's own personal physician. Who happens to own the largest chain of private for-profit health care facilities in Quebec. Private for-profit clinics that Paul Martin himself uses for ALL of his health care, BTW.

So...what is a poor beleagured Liberal PM to do here? Especially one that is clinging to power by the very slimmest of possible margins.

Does he shut down the private care clinics? Does he further antagonise Quebec...a province where he and the Liberals have already revived a strong separatist movement due to their much publicised corruption scandal?

Does he shut down his OWN personal private health care clinic? Does he tell everyone that they just "have to wait, in pain"? For a year or two?

Will Paul Martin "wait in pain"...if he has some medical problems? (he is almost as old as Jean Chretien, after all)

Or will he let the Supreme Court decision stand...and then also allow similar lawsuits to be mounted by other provinces? And then watch our much vaunted system turn into a European style private/public dual system?

And then watch the NDP react to this insult by withdrawing their support for Paul Martin's tiny minority? Which will certainly spell the end of his term as PM.

Will Qubec be allowed to have yet another "special deal". One that will antagonise the rest of the country and further erode his shrinking voter base?

Poor old Paul. He looked like a deer caught in the headlights on TV again today. And he's stuttering in public again. He does that when he's really truly f**ked. Last time I saw him stutter like this in public was at the peak of the corruption scandal.

He's painted himself into yet another corner. There is no easy way out of THIS one, either. It should be rather interesting watching him squirm and fluster.

Hope he doesn't have any more Liberal defections in the coming weeks. Or any new scandals.

NewBill

What's in a name? Reform ... Conservative-Reform ... Conservative.

Here on the West Coast ... a SoCred is now a Liberal!

I think people understand that progressive is gone from Conservative, and know full well who they will never vote for and why.

It is a testament to people's distaste for the thinly veiled right winged reformers that they would reject them even in an atmosphere that has so much political stink.

Personally I find the scrutiny of the current minority government and the resulting compromise a healthy sign. Woe betide those who are seen to bring down a working government for no good reason.

PosterBoy

Vote buying? One Red Tory crossed the floor (now a Blue Grit), and the independant it all hinged on is probably the only one who actually listened to his consituents.

Martins family doctor operates private clinics, but apparently he doesn't use the for-pay services. He does have a health plan through Canada Steamship Lines, but according to his doctor: <em>"The only services provided to Mr. Martin are those which may be provided by any family physician."</em> (<a href="http://www.http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1083949068323_79358268?s_name=&no_ads=" targe="_blank">source</a>).

Unless you can supply some kind of proof that he's lying. Note: "his lips are moving!" is not proof.

It's true that this isn't the first corner that the Liberals have found themselves backed into, but at the same time it's also true that the Conservatives have not been able to gain any momentum from any of the opportunities that have basically been handed to them on silver platters.

Given the scope of some of the opportunites they've had, I see only two real reasons this can be so:

a) they're inept
b) enough of the country doesn't agree with their policies they'd rather stick with the devil they know

So which is it?

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"Putting clients first by putting employees first, immediately after prioritizing fiscal responsibility and leveraging profitability toward exceeding by empowering our employees to put clients (and themselves) first, in a diverse and respectful environment of only those that come first, first."

used to be jwoodget

Err.... a) and b)?

The Liberals will wrap themselves in the CHA while dumping the problem back to the provinces. The ruling does open the issue to debate which is good but NO federal party is going to suggest a weakening of the CHA. It would be suicide. Second thoughts, given past history, perhaps the Conservatives will fall on the sword again...

We can deal with waiting times by expanding medical and nursing school enrollment and by testing foreign-trained professionals in a timely manner. Anything else just re-arranges deckchairs on a sinking ship.

MacNutt

Wellll...we aren't doing a terribly good job of "dealing with wait times" or any of the rest of it. And throwing extra money at the problem while clinging to a failed model hasn't...and WON'T...actually fix it. Not ever.

But I do agree with you when you speak about re-arranging the deckchairs on a sinking ship. That's been the modus opperandi of the Liberals for the past decade when it comes to "fixing" health care. And it shows.

It will be interesting to see what happens when the upcoming demographic bomb goes off. The huge baby boom generation is about to enter retirement age and that means less money for the government and FAR more demands put on an already failing health care system.

The time to get this thing fixed and running well is NOW.

If we wait till it's too late...then we will end up with exactly what the US now has for a completely private system. PLUS high taxes to cover all of the past health care related public debt.

Want some possible solutions to this? Have a look at the thread on "national health care".

elmer

I'm sorry, but after reading the transcript of Grewal's tape, how can you not realize the attitude Murphy has about this kind of thing? It's so disgusting. I am a big liberal on social issues and was giving Martin the benefit of the doubt on the whole sponsorship scandal, but being hit in the face with that turned the tables. I want these guys out.We should all be disaffected; we should all help bring this government down.

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MacNutt

So do an increasing number of people. I think that most of the truly faithful Liberals will eventually have to turn away from their former heroes in total disgust. The facts are simply too damning. They just have to get past the old ingrained loyalties...and the deep fear of the unknown.

And THEN they have to use their minds to make a well informed decision at the voting booth. Or we will just end up with more of the same.

Here is an interesting blog that covers some of this, plus some thoughts about the earlier discussion on where Canada's national health care system may be going. It also exposes yet more hypocracy by the Liberals and their current leader.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/wordp...dex.php?cat=12

elmer

Not trying to de-rail this thread, but just want to add, here's a couple of my least favourite parts of the tape. It's really more disgusting to read the whole thing in context, but here ya go.Then later...

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PosterBoy

That link requires a subscription which I will never buy, care to share what it says?

Also, was not Grewals tape determined to be altered? The Conservatives keep trying to take the moral high ground, but end up on the same low road as the Liberals.

Either way, Belinda was the only one who changed sides and Cadman, the independent, listened to his constituents who fairly universally said "we don't want an election" and voted based on that. Like MPs are supposed to.

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question, though. By all accounts the Conservatives should have ousted the Liberals by now, so why have they not been able to?

__________________
"Putting clients first by putting employees first, immediately after prioritizing fiscal responsibility and leveraging profitability toward exceeding by empowering our employees to put clients (and themselves) first, in a diverse and respectful environment of only those that come first, first."