This is a part rant, part explanation, part plea.

I have always been a solitary person. Quiet. Not outgoing. The Myers/Briggs calls it 'introverted'. However, I am not shy. Don't confuse a lack of response to lack of attention. I'm paying attention, I just don't feel a response is necessary or justified. I will often ponder. If I do post, it is because I have an opinion I wish to offer which I feel will be of benefit to the discussion.

Many introverted people have certain qualities: they are good listeners, and are often able to offer insights because they do pay attention when others speak.

In real life, in social interaction, people such as myself are often shut out of conversations by more boisterous and outgoing 'extroverts' who tend to dominate conversations.

In the late 1990's I started interacting with others on various forums on the internet. For the most part these people were very similar to myself: deep thinkers, quiet, not particularly forceful in inflicting themselves upon others.

I felt I had finally found the kindred spirits that I'd been unable to connect with in the 'real world' - mostly because the extroverts were talking too loudly and we introverts were just standing in the corners, (mostly watching and pondering). Via this new medium - the internet - we were finally able to connect.

And it was SO excellent, for about 10 years. The extroverts hadn't found us. Sure, there were a few loudmouth blowhards who had to have their uninformed opinion on just about everything, but on some, special forums, the majority were deep thinkers who would state their opinions once, and would listen (or read) when others expressed their opinions. Discussions would be insightful, and there would be a meaningful exchange of information. The loudmouths were easily ignored, and would eventually go elsewhere for the attention they were obviously seeking.

But that has changed. I don't know if the introverts have become extroverts, or the extroverts just found the internet.

In any case, the extroverts are making it very difficult for us introverts to have the in-depth meaningful conversations that we used to enjoy. The extroverts have again taken over, and for the most part the introverts have given up and gone back into 'lurk mode'.

No longer is it enough to state your opinion once. Now, it doesn't matter 'what' you post, just the quantity of times you post the same opinion. It's become 'argument via attrition'. Last poster wins.

Take a look at the membership of ehMac. Take a look at the post number of various members.

EhMac has a lot of members who no longer post. Why? Because you extroverts WON'T SHUT UP.

So, please, this is my plea: SHUT UP AND LISTEN for once. We heard you the first time you posted your opinion on whatever. We have heard your story already. We don't need to read the same thing over and over and over again.

And if you have more than 10,000 posts, (or have only been a member for a year or two but already have 2,000 posts) please think twice (or three times) before you respond to this thread.

Thanks.

If we had a "like" button, I would tap it now.

I'm reading a book right now that you might enjoy, winwintoo, called Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking (http://www.amazon.ca/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-Talking/dp/0739341243)

There is a free 'sample' available from iTMS Canada if you want to read it electronically.

I haven't got to the end yet, though, so I don't know how it ends. (Maybe the author cautions against doing exactly what I've done here ... we'll see.)

Looks interesting. I went checking prices and when I got to kobobooks, this was one of their recommendations for me!

Being an introvert, and seeing as I may have more friends from the internet than elsewhere, I've found much the same as MLeh, though I have come to a different conclusion about how to handle it... simply ignore people you don't feel like discussing with.

Unlike real life, where it's consider rude to have someone speak and then carry on leaving their words unacknowledged, on the Internet you can do that. It's nice like that.

Mind you, when the signal to noise ratio gets out of whack, it becomes difficult to even do that.

I think I'm usually pretty good at ignoring, but I think your analysis of 'signal to noise ratio' is an apt comparison. Hard to filter sometimes, and even harder to be heard.

Being an introvert, and seeing as I may have more friends from the internet than elsewhere, I've found much the same as MLeh, though I have come to a different conclusion about how to handle it... simply ignore people you don't feel like discussing with.

Unlike real life, where it's consider rude to have someone speak and then carry on leaving their words unacknowledged, on the Internet you can do that. It's nice like that.

Mind you, when the signal to noise ratio gets out of whack, it becomes difficult to even do that.

I am agreeing with you Sonal, there are many times that I would like to respond, but then I see the "only my opinion counts" attitude of some and just ignore it.

.

MLeh, with all due respect, I already know your story very well by now as well. I know how you will post and what you will say, but it doesn't bother me at all.

If you want to have quiet discussions, why not just designate this one the "Quiet Thread" or for "Introverts Only."

You need to remember that this is a forum. A forum with no posts has no future. No income, no new members. So the serial posters do help!

I read everyone's comments in a thread. If the poster has less posts in their history then I consider it more, in the same way that when I play poker....if a player has folded every hand, then raises then I consider his hand strong. If you don't post well then I have no idea your thoughts on the matter.

MLeh, with all due respect, I already know your story very well by now as well. I know how you will post and what you will say, but it doesn't bother me at all.

If you want to have quiet discussions, why not just designate this one the "Quiet Thread" or for "Introverts Only."

As a matter of interest, I've noticed that many regulars here "know" me well enough to post good, concise replies whenever I ask a question. You guys know what I'm missing and give it to me without a lot of extra verbiage or treating me like a n00b when I ask dumb questions.

I like that.

The desire to increase the S/N in various public fora is admirable, and has been around since time immemorial. I've been participating in on-line discussions since before the internet existed (ARPAnet, FIDO, etc.) and have seen it evolve from UseNet through to the current situation (although I should say I still haven't joined FaceBook and I don't use Twitter, so there may be some new online social phenomena I'm not considering). From what I have observed, I think it's fair to say that trolls are everywhere, they will always invade and degrade the S/N, and the only reasonable response is to ignore them.

Moderation can help, as can some patience (most of us are susceptible to occasional fits of malevolence, or short-temperedness at the very least). And chronic pests can and should be banned (although there is little to prevent someone from returning under a new pseudonym).

Back when CB radios were an emerging social fad, it was observed that certain personality types would become far more pugnacious and belligerent when they were semi-anonymous voices-at-a-distance. This gets worse on-line, when you can't even hear the tone-of-voice, so the people you're interacting with are even less socially tangible. Back in the days of UseNet, when the discussion group hierarchy was denoted using '.' characters (e.g. rec.arts.sf.written or alt.flame) I referred to this phenomenon as the 'net.tourettes' syndrome.

I will admit to being somewhat susceptible to this psychology myself, as I will take far more extreme positions on-line, in order to provoke argument, than I would IRL (or, at the very least, IRL someone would likely know I was playing devil's advocate from non-verbal cues).

I, for one, have found your contributions here consistently valuable; thought provoking, cogent, articulate and generally agreeable. So I hope you won't let the noise drown you out.

MLeh, with all due respect, I already know your story very well by now as well. I know how you will post and what you will say, but it doesn't bother me at all.
You know what I'll post and what I will say? Wow. That's impressive. Didn't realize I was so repetitive and predictable. My humblest apologies.


If you want to have quiet discussions, why not just designate this one the "Quiet Thread" or for "Introverts Only."
I thought I'd done that, only more subtly.

Hey, I just thought of something else... for decades people like have bemoaned the degrading S/N ratio on the internet, and cringed every fall as a new crop of college kids got access, or as a new AOL or other service facilitated the stampede of the clueless to get on line, because these always made things worse.

But I've just realized that FaceBook may save us. As the folks who are only interested in hearing themselves talk, and who either lack the intelligence or interest to carry on meaningful discussions continue to gravitate to FaceBook, it improves the internet for the rest of us! I have just become a fan of FaceBook and Twitter; the Kidneys of the Internet!

You know what I'll post and what I will say? Wow. That's impressive. Didn't realize I was so repetitive and predictable. My humblest apologies.

So, please, this is my plea: SHUT UP AND LISTEN for once. We heard you the first time you posted your opinion on whatever. We have heard your story already. We don't need to read the same thing over and over and over again.

Just as you know the stories of other EhMacers, they know yours as well. Sure, it's repetitive, but it is not unwelcome.

I, for one, have found your contributions here consistently valuable; thought provoking, cogent, articulate and generally agreeable. So I hope you won't let the noise drown you out.
I thank you for your kind words, bryanc, but it wasn't really for myself I was posting.

This thread came about as a result of contemplation and a non-direct response to this post - http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/19434-shangri-la-clubhouse-4011.html#post1184107 - where they were talking about people who no longer post.

There are plenty of people who had valuable, thought provoking, cogent, articulate and generally agreeable opinions who have been drowned out. I'm trying to speak up on their behalf, and perhaps give them a venue where they won't be drowned out.

Many of my favourite posters to read have popped up in this thread.

This thread came about as a result of contemplation and a non-direct response to this post - http://www.ehmac.ca/everything-else-eh/19434-shangri-la-clubhouse-4011.html#post1184107 - where they were talking about people who no longer post.

There are plenty of people who had valuable, thought provoking, cogent, articulate and generally agreeable opinions who have been drowned out. I'm trying to speak up on their behalf, and perhaps give them a venue where they won't be drowned out.

There are certainly several posters who seem to have gone on to other things. I know at least one of them is still active on at least one other forum, so perhaps some will come back.

This is a tough balancing act for the mayor; too much moderation and many would leave - too little and it degenerates and people leave. I think he does a pretty good job.

I have nothing to say, and I am saying it anyway, and that is your average internet forum.

(paraphrased from John Cage)

Hey, I just thought of something else... for decades people like have bemoaned the degrading S/N ratio on the internet, and cringed every fall as a new crop of college kids got access, or as a new AOL or other service facilitated the stampede of the clueless to get on line, because these always made things worse.

But I've just realized that FaceBook may save us. As the folks who are only interested in hearing themselves talk, and who either lack the intelligence or interest to carry on meaningful discussions continue to gravitate to FaceBook, it improves the internet for the rest of us! I have just become a fan of FaceBook and Twitter; the Kidneys of the Internet!

Clearly you do not use Facebook and have very little idea of what it is good for. Rather than using it to "hear oneself talk" I find most users use it to keep up with what their friends Nd family are up to, and the Like button allows a person to express their approval without writing any words at all (we used to have that button here once--where did it go?)

The purpose of an Internet forum, on the other hand, is to give people chance to interact or have a conversation with people with similar interests no matter where they are located. No conversation; thread shuts down. Of course people could misinterpret you or nasty arguments could ensue or know-it-alls could try and take over, but that's similar to Ny real conversation.

I don't think people can be neatly divided into either introverts or extroverts, since I know I exhibit the qualities of both at times, but as for people who "like to hear themselves talk" go, I believe that's what Twitter is for. It's not really designed for conversations, more for shout-outs. I read a few celebrity posts there, but otherwise I find the format less satisfying.

Some of us need interaction and responses to what we post, others not so much. Maybe that's why so many different formats have evolved.

Hey, I just thought of something else... for decades people like have bemoaned the degrading S/N ratio on the internet, and cringed every fall as a new crop of college kids got access, or as a new AOL or other service facilitated the stampede of the clueless to get on line, because these always made things worse.

But I've just realized that FaceBook may save us. As the folks who are only interested in hearing themselves talk, and who either lack the intelligence or interest to carry on meaningful discussions continue to gravitate to FaceBook, it improves the internet for the rest of us! I have just become a fan of FaceBook and Twitter; the Kidneys of the Internet!
:clap: Well said! I always hated Facebook for what it is but you made a good point, FB does serve a purpose a dumping ground for the mindless.

Thanks for bringing up this subject MLeh. I heard the author of the book you're reading being interviewed on CBC radio recently and found it very interesting.

When I first started on ehMac I hadn't done a lot of discussion forum posting on the internet. Like most here, I first joined because I had some Mac questions that I was looking for answers to and the helpful people here gladly complied. The fabled late MacNutt sent me a message right away welcoming me to ehMac and giving me some useful info on local Mac suppliers in Victoria.

Then I discovered the political threads, which at the time were much more of a wild west than it is now, with MacNutt stirring the pot on the right and a few who have gone away doing so on the left. I dove right in, being as insulting as everyone else was, but discovered that it made no difference to anything really. Then following the example of several of the more cordial posters here I decided that being respectful was of greater importance than being right.

People here will approach things however their personality dictates. As the always wise Sonal says, best to just ignore those who you don't want to interact with. I think the only thing one can do is make your point and add your information, then let the chips fall where they may. I trust that reasonable people will recognize when others are making reasonable points and arguments and those that aren't reasonable won't. There's not a lot that can be done about that.

One thing I learned to do is if I really find myself getting hot about a subject, is to back off and wait until the next day before I respond. I'll type out my reply in TextEdit and then look at it again later. I think with iPhones and such people will respond immediately and say things that just inflame rather than inform.

I don't have nearly as much time for ehMac as I used to, so I participate far less than I once did, and this is likely a good thing.

FB serves a purpose. It's actually handy for keeping track of my various nieces and nephews - there's a bunch of 'em - who couldn't otherwise be bothered to let me or other relatives know what is going on in their lives.

(I read the FB updates, and then keep my parents (their grandparents) informed of anything relevant, such as when one nephew moved out of the country for a new job - it wasn't a big secret, but he just didn't bother letting any of us know. This way my parents won't fall for the 'it's your grandson and I'm in jail in Montreal please wire me some money' scam that apparently targets older people. Not that they would anyway.)

But forums, FB, twitter, all these things are merely tools - they are not good or bad inherently, but just provide a means of communication. In addition to how they can be used, it is how they are used that determines their value.

<-------------------

If you take a look over here, you'll see you've solved a minor dilemma for me.

As the always wise Sonal says.

Thanks.

<-------------------

If you take a look over here, you'll see you've solved a minor dilemma for me.



Thanks.

And humble!

<-------------------

If you take a look over here, you'll see you've solved a minor dilemma for me.

I thought the re-branding was a reference to later this year. (Sorry for the derailment.)

Thanks for your thoughts Mleh. I often get turned off a thread because of the juvenile name calling and smarmy comments.
also the posters with nothing new to add but just want to raise their post count.

I love forums, I have been actively involved in them for over 10 years now, but I tend to leave one forum for another depending on if my interest chances. For example I used to be on some car forums, lost interest, joined a photography forum that i still visit, and recently signed up here to learn about Macs. I would consider myself an introvert in real life, but on the internet I feel like the opposite. I feel that I am nice and respectful but I can express myself better than I would be able to otherwise in a face to face situation. I guess I am not really shy, but just quiet, and have a harder time in social situations (especially in groups.)

I like reading and conversing with all types of people and their opinions, as long as the place doesn't get over run by idiots (one of the reasons I stopped going to the particular car forums I was a member of.) Like someone else mentioned, if everyone is quiet then there is no traffic, and the forum will fail! It is always nice to have a balance, and usually if you are on a forum with people that have alot in common with you it is not too hard to manage.

There are plenty of people who had valuable, thought provoking, cogent, articulate and generally agreeable opinions who have been drowned out. I'm trying to speak up on their behalf, and perhaps give them a venue where they won't be drowned out.

Drowned out? Maybe they just looked up, saw the world outside their window and turned their computer off.

I have nothing to say, and I am saying it anyway, and that is your average internet forum.

(paraphrased from John Cage)

Also most staff meetings at school :) And most Powerpoint presentations I've seen.

forums are a tough one. It's a playground for the anonymous, and trolls. I admin a busy place somewhere and we've had to close the political forum 3 times now. Now, we nail the obvious trolls, it's the only way to keep it from crashing down into a slugfest. But yeah overmoderate, and it can become ugly too. It's the one subject that is toughest to deal with.

I have nothing to say, and I am saying it anyway, and that is your average internet forum.

(paraphrased from John Cage)

Also most staff meetings at school :)

Amen.

Also most staff meetings at school :) And most Powerpoint presentations I've seen.

I once worked for a school board at which someone began to describe the progress they had made heading up a particular committee and their plans for meeting with the other members, etc. After 5 minutes of tedium, someone pointed out that the person wasn't actually on that committee--they were just making the stuff up on the spot.

Drowned out? Maybe they just looked up, saw the world outside their window and turned their computer off.

I'm sure that's the case with some. But, speaking from personal experience a lot of times it's just 'back into lurk mode' with a side of 'why bother?'

I'm all for balance - nothing wrong with people the way they are, either naturally reticent or more outgoing. It's just lately the balance seems to have tipped in favour of those who are more naturally attention-seeking/outgoing, while those who are more reticent might have something of value to say but seldom get the opportunity to be heard. (They can say it more easily on a forum than in real life, but it still gets lost in the barrage.)

forums are a tough one. It's a playground for the anonymous, and trolls. I admin a busy place somewhere and we've had to close the political forum 3 times now. Now, we nail the obvious trolls, it's the only way to keep it from crashing down into a slugfest. But yeah overmoderate, and it can become ugly too. It's the one subject that is toughest to deal with.

I'm not asking for moderators to moderate. I'm asking for self-moderation and consideration, and maybe a place for the lurkers to post and contribute and be part of the discussion and feel like they're being heard.

Saw this today, and it reminded of this thread:
23749

I'm not asking for moderators to moderate. I'm asking for self-moderation and consideration, and maybe a place for the lurkers to post and contribute and be part of the discussion and feel like they're being heard.

If lurkers posted, they wouldn't be lurking anymore. I think you'll always have 'em. No one's forcing them to stay in lurk mode. You can't make people come out into the open, they have to do it themselves.

As for self-moderation, that's a great thing to aspire to. But this being the internet, the noise to signal ratio will always be immoderately high. For many of the same reasons you have outlined in this thread.

They weren't always lurkers. As outlined previously, there are a lot of people who used to post, who no longer do, for whatever reason. I know I often 'give up' when I realize that the 'regulars' are just into their sparring mode and not really interested in anything outside of that.

You're right - we can't make them 'come out into the open', but we can certainly make it so they don't feel it's completely useless to say anything.

They weren't always lurkers. As outlined previously, there are a lot of people who used to post, who no longer do, for whatever reason. I know I often 'give up' when I realize that the 'regulars' are just into their sparring mode and not really interested in anything outside of that.

You're right - we can't make them 'come out into the open', but we can certainly make it so they don't feel it's completely useless to say anything.

Personally, I'm interested in what many EhMacers have to say, with few exceptions. The notion that members aren't interested in occasional posters has no traction with me.

Oh, I'm sure there are lots of people who are actually interested in reading things other than the usual. Just too much work sometimes to filter.

Anyone else notice it has been "so quiet in here" since MLeh posted this thread.

It's kind of... nice. "This must be what paradise is like...."

01kUyzOnbAM

Oh, I'm sure there are lots of people who are actually interested in reading things other than the usual. Just too much work sometimes to filter.

I read each and every post in the threads that interest me.

I start out being interested, read the posts, and start contemplating a reasoned response. However usually by the time I've formulated a response the topic has already morphed into one of the usual arguments between the regulars (ie 'Global Warming' or one of the other usual debates that have no end) and I swear I experience deja vu and can't remember if the posts I'm reading are new or if I'd actually read them already. I wish there was some sort of shorthand [global warming argument skip next 20 posts] - so we could just not get sidetracked every time.

And no, this is not an invitation to start one of those debates here!!!

I start out being interested, read the posts, and start contemplating a reasoned response. However usually by the time I've formulated a response the topic has already morphed into one of the usual arguments between the regulars (ie 'Global Warming' or one of the other usual debates that have no end) and I swear I experience deja vu and can't remember if the posts I'm reading are new or if I'd actually read them already. I wish there was some sort of shorthand [global warming argument skip next 20 posts] - so we could just not get sidetracked every time.

And no, this is not an invitation to start one of those debates here!!!

Sorry MLeh I have been "lurking" this thread for a while and only posted once and i just don't see why you are saying this:

...the topic has already morphed into one of the usual arguments between the regulars (ie 'Global Warming' or one of the other usual debates that have no end) and I swear I experience deja vu...

I really don't see the evidence in the posts... I don't know what you expected by starting this thread? Was everyone supposed to agree with you..? I really don't know.

I thought I knew where you were coming from but after your latest post I'm not so sure...

Har. Not THIS topic. This topic hasn't morphed. (which is kinda nice)

Har. Not THIS topic. This topic hasn't morphed. (which is kinda nice)

Ok... still confused. :confused:

sudo rm -rf /

.

The dude abides.

Ok... still confused. :confused:

Har. Not THIS topic. This topic hasn't morphed. (which is kinda nice)

I think I was reading dyslexic last night, also I was very tired when I read your posts. I don't know how I misunderstood what you were saying. I reread it this morning and it was obvious... sorry for the misunderstanding on my part.

Oh good. You were starting to confuse me with your confusion!

No worries.

This constant arguing is giving me a headache. Can't a man sleep?!

.
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png