680 NEWs is reporting that gas is going up 4cents and then another 4cents by the weekend - which $1.50 gas - which means I will have to pay $ 1.60 for the 91..
only one thing comes to mind when I think of oil and gas companies.
The province or the feds need to step in and lock it down the speculation of pricing this is
insane what is happening. - I did think I would need a credit line to fill my car up.
http://i44.tinypic.com/20zwh9c.gif

The markets will set you free, with invisible hands and all, just ask the Fury.

We are already at $1.45. :ptptptptp :mad: :ptptptptp

The markets will set you free, with invisible hands and all, just ask the Fury.

It's kinda funny how the freedom shills often lean on socialism for convenience.

Greenies should be happy. They've been begging for Euro gas prices for years. Think of all the happy trees.

What invisible hand? The market has been heavily regulated for years. Just look at the insane taxes you're paying as part of that price. But once you strip away the government part, I expect gas would still sell for about a buck a litre, simply because of supply and demand.

What price would you folks sell a litre of gas for if you owned the oil company?

We are already at $1.45. :ptptptptp :mad: :ptptptptp

but Atlantic Canada has Provincally monitored prices.. which means once a month changes
In Ontario gas prices change per hour, like the stock market.. Morning is one price then mid day prices, followed by evening rush hour is another price.. [really insane ]
I find it hilarious that we have gas stations on both side of the streets every 3 blocks where we live and they are all the same prices.. so much for competition..

What invisible hand? The market has been heavily regulated for years. Just look at the insane taxes you're paying as part of that price. But once you strip away the government part, I expect gas would still sell for about a buck a litre, simply because of supply and demand.

What price would you folks sell a litre of gas for if you owned the oil company?

Actually, it would seem as if the market is being manipulated by speculators in futures contracts on refined gasoline. There is little about the free market influence of supply and demand at play here.

but Atlantic Canada has Provincally monitored prices.. which means once a month changes
In Ontario gas prices change per hour, like the stock market.. Morning is one price then mid day prices, followed by evening rush hour is another price.. [really insane ]
I find it hilarious that we have gas stations on both side of the streets every 3 blocks where we live and they are all the same prices.. so much for competition..

Once a week changes here ................ every Thursday the price is reset ........... which is why most of us get our tanks filled on Wednesday evening.

Again, if you discounted what you believe to be speculation, how much should gas cost?

Again, if you discounted what you believe to be speculation, how much should gas cost?

should be at least half.. IMHO.. or like .90 per litre..
after you remove speculation and thieves.

The cost of the oil itself would be more than 90 cents per litre of gasoline sold.

Again, if you discounted what you believe to be speculation, how much should gas cost?

According to conservative economists, gas should be selling for about thirty cents less. Then, there are all sorts of taxes that drive up the cost from the true market driven supply and demand prices. CBC Radio One had an interesting piece on this matter on Sunday.

This is my guess by mid month..
till the end of summer for sure.
http://blogs.mie.utoronto.ca/roller/oscar/resource/20080625-Gas.jpg

According to conservative economists, gas should be selling for about thirty cents less. Then, there are all sorts of taxes that drive up the cost from the true market driven supply and demand prices. CBC Radio One had an interesting piece on this matter on Sunday.

Right, gas prices are roughly one-third tax. So at $1.50, the price would be a $1.00 before taxes.

So you figure 70 cents a litre, plus taxes?

What invisible hand? The market has been heavily regulated for years. Just look at the insane taxes you're paying as part of that price. But once you strip away the government part, I expect gas would still sell for about a buck a litre, simply because of supply and demand.

What price would you folks sell a litre of gas for if you owned the oil company?

Not supply and demand but market manipulation. We have seen over the top prices even when the refineries were bursting at the seams with unsold product. But hey as long as it lines MFs Billionaire buddies pockets all is well with the system.

Not supply and demand but market manipulation. We have seen over the top prices even when the refineries were bursting at the seams with unsold product. But hey as long as it lines MFs Billionaire buddies pockets all is well with the system.

We've also seen gas prices fall. Market manipulation didn't appear to work then. Truth is that OPEC sets the world's oil prices and oil prices determine gas prices. There are local variances but the big difference from market to market is distribution costs and government taxes.

but Atlantic Canada has Provincally monitored prices.. which means once a month changes
In Ontario gas prices change per hour, like the stock market.. Morning is one price then mid day prices, followed by evening rush hour is another price.. [really insane ]
I find it hilarious that we have gas stations on both side of the streets every 3 blocks where we live and they are all the same prices.. so much for competition..Obviously when folks know not of what they speak, they should therefore go educate themselves before showing a level of ignorance.

Obviously when folks know not of what they speak, they should therefore go educate themselves before showing a level of ignorance.

in our area prices change by time of day.. it is higher in the AM and then in evening..

Actually, gas prices are fair. Most people do not understand the pricing pressure placed on companies due to the futures market impact. Most people do not realize that the current rise in price is caused by a slow down in production from an oil refining plant which we do not buy oil products from and the pressures of the Middle East, notably Iran, who doesn't sell us oil, which causes a hedging of future demand and thus impacts the prices, which is independent of the fact the current barrel prices have fallen, however growing strain on the industry would cause market seepage and thus petro-products might easily migrate to more consumer focused economies, say such as those of the United States. However that being said, much of the gas price is influenced by tax structure...very little of the gas price is actually profit. The fact that refineries such as Exon, Shell, BP make billions of.profit is in no way related to gas prices but is an accident of volume.

Again, if you discounted what you believe to be speculation, how much should gas cost?

How much? What the market will bear, of course. And judging by the rise in truck and SUV sales, it seems higher prices haven't done much to curtail consumption.

Actually, gas prices are fair. Most people do not understand the pricing pressure placed on companies due to the futures market impact. Most people do not realize that the current rise in price is caused by a slow down in production from an oil refining plant which we do not buy oil products from and the pressures of the Middle East, notably Iran, who doesn't sell us oil, which causes a hedging of future demand and thus impacts the prices, which is independent of the fact the current barrel prices have fallen, however growing strain on the industry would cause market seepage and thus petro-products might easily migrate to more consumer focused economies, say such as those of the United States. However that being said, much of the gas price is influenced by tax structure...very little of the gas price is actually profit. The fact that refineries such as Exon, Shell, BP make billions of.profit is in no way related to gas prices but is an accident of volume.

In fact, many of the oil companies are getting out of the gas retailing business.

Right, gas prices are roughly one-third tax. So at $1.50, the price would be a $1.00 before taxes.

So you figure 70 cents a litre, plus taxes?

$1.20 before taxes if the price is at about $1.50.

"Actually, gas prices are fair. Most people do not understand the pricing pressure placed on companies due to the futures market impact. " Rps, that was the point I was making in posting #8 of this thread. The price of oil and refined petro products is being driven up by speculators in the futures market.

Actually Dr. G , I was being satirical.... I think we are being ripped.... Like crying wolf, we may not know when the real trouble starts until it is too late.

In fact, many of the oil companies are getting out of the gas retailing business.

True. Many companies are downsizing the number of retail locations. Some retail locations realize more profit from the associated convenience store than the actual sale of gasoline.

I find it funny how so many oil companies are now in the business of selling snacks, smokes lottery tickets and basic groceries.

True. Many companies are downsizing the number of retail locations. Some retail locations realize more profit from the associated convenience store than the actual sale of gasoline.

I find it funny how so many oil companies are now in the business of selling snacks, smokes lottery tickets and basic groceries.

Which explains the absurd drive to force customers to pay with a credit crd at the pump, thus assuring many customers never walk into the convenience store.:D Forgive the rant but that pre-pay crap really is a pet peeve.

I'm really often puzzled by the notion that oil companies should sell gasoline at some sort of low price that people want to pay. I've watched labour push for a minimum wage and watched striking workers colluding with each other to fix the price of their labour and nobody seems to find this unfair. Why shouldn't gas be sold at the price people are willing to pay?

Admittedly I've only lived here for four years, but ISTR gas prices significantly higher than what I last paid ($1.25/litre) at various points in the past.

I'm really often puzzled by the notion that oil companies should sell gasoline at some sort of low price that people want to pay. I've watched labour push for a minimum wage and watched striking workers colluding with each other to fix the price of their labour and nobody seems to find this unfair. Why shouldn't gas be sold at the price people are willing to pay?

Gas is being sold at a price that people have no choice but to pay. The tried and true principle of supply and demand is not helping dictate the price.

Actually Dr. G , I was being satirical.... I think we are being ripped.... Like crying wolf, we may not know when the real trouble starts until it is too late.

Oops. :o I see, Rps, and I agree.

I'm really often puzzled by the notion that oil companies should sell gasoline at some sort of low price that people want to pay. I've watched labour push for a minimum wage and watched striking workers colluding with each other to fix the price of their labour and nobody seems to find this unfair. Why shouldn't gas be sold at the price people are willing to pay?

Gas is being sold at a price that people have no choice but to pay. The tried and true principle of supply and demand is not helping dictate the price.

This is the key point. If prices are grossly inflated due to futures speculation then only the speculators seem to profit. Despite U.S. petroleum reserves being at an eight-year high, the price of oil rose dramatically beginning in 2006. While demand rose, supply kept pace. Yet, prices still skyrocketed. This means that the laws of supply and demand no longer applied in the oil markets. Instead, an artificial market developed.

This is the key point. If prices are grossly inflated due to futures speculation then only the speculators seem to profit. Despite U.S. petroleum reserves being at an eight-year high, the price of oil rose dramatically beginning in 2006. While demand rose, supply kept pace. Yet, prices still skyrocketed. This means that the laws of supply and demand no longer applied in the oil markets. Instead, an artificial market developed.

The price is based on demand all over the world and maintaining existing infrastructure. Supply is not increasing--demand is decreasing. In the U.S., demand is 10 per cent lower than it was last year. When you need to maintain a large infrastructure of fixed assets, the price per gallon/litre can actually rise to cover business costs. Excess supplies are exported to countries willing to pay more for it.

This makes perfect sense to me, although some people expect the gasoline retailers to flood the market with gasoline to drive down the price of fuel. This strikes me as the equivalent of deciding that you are unhappy with the costs associated with hourly labour in your profession and increasing your working hours by 50 per cent so as to flood the market with your expertise, and make your labour more affordable.

Competition in both labour and gasoline is not designed to make the product as low as it can be, but to bring it to a point where supply and demand lines cross at a price consumers are willing to pay.

"The price is based on demand all over the world and maintaining existing infrastructure. Supply is not increasing--demand is decreasing. In the U.S., demand is 10 per cent lower than it was last year. When you need to maintain a large infrastructure of fixed assets, the price per gallon/litre can actually rise to cover business costs. Excess supplies are exported to countries willing to pay more for it." If supply is static, but demand is down, why then the rise in price??? In the past month, the price for oil is down just over 3% but the price for gasoline is up over 4%. I am not blaming the oil companies for these factors, just the speculators.

If you want to be confused, try understanding this .............
Gasoline Options Explained | The Options & Futures Guide (http://www.theoptionsguide.com/gasoline-options.aspx)

The lowest grade of unleaded gasoline may hit $1.50 tomorrow here in St.John's. We shall see.

I am not blaming the oil companies for these factors, just the speculators.


From Dan McTeague's website:
Frequently Asked Questions - Tomorrow's Gas Price Today (http://tomorrowsgaspricetoday.com/faq.html)

In 2008, crude futures were manipulated and excessively speculated to increase their value despite their total disconnect with market fundamentals (supply and demand). As we now know, this was driven by an extensive list of players including the now infamous AIG and Lehman Bros. These entities, without any capital requirements, bet large and moved crude up as a result of unregulated platforms.

Their actions, and those of many others, gave rise to the super bubble mirroring the purchase frenzies in the financial markets. Subsequently, refiners were left holding the bag with no margin as crudes rapid rise outpaced the secondary market. Today that distortion is now playing out both in the crude and gasoline markets where each is priced by at least $20 a barrel and 25 cents per litre respectively.

Right, gas prices are roughly one-third tax. So at $1.50, the price would be a $1.00 before taxes.

So you figure 70 cents a litre, plus taxes?

Actual taxes more like a quarter of the pump price. At yesterday's price of $1.359 I had the privilege of filling up at the reserve off Rama curtesy of my wife, who is native, and paid $1.02 per litre - the price of gas with no tax in Ontario.

Today's price hike was just pure and simple a cash grab by the oil companies as crude prices dropped by over a buck a barrel

This is a quote from Gas Prices - Tomorrows Gas Price Today - Dan McTeague (http://www.tomorrowsgaspricetoday.com)

TGPT has learned that the industry's line for the increase we witnessed today is due to the conversion from winter to summer gas. This is a lame and well worn excuse. The fact is that fuel specs in Canada, unlike the US, don't change with the season. Tonight's increase is simply an excuse to to ding motorists safe in the knowledge that no one will challenge this nonsense.

Gas prices in our area sit at $1.099/litre.

Why do gas providers need an excuse to raise prices at all? Do you need an excuse to ask for a raise?

Why do gas providers need an excuse to raise prices at all? Do you need an excuse to ask for a raise?

You seem to be ignoring the speculation aspect.

You seem to be ignoring the speculation aspect.

If you own a Wayne Gretzky sports card and believe it will double next month, will you sell it to a buyer at today's price?

If you own a Wayne Gretzky sports card and believe it will double next month, will you sell it to a buyer at today's price?

That card is a collectable with a limited number of cards, with gas being a consumable product, with the possibility for producing more or less at any given time. Granted a collector might speculate on the cost of the card going up, but there are no futures contracts being written on this product as there are with gas and oil, and no hedging being done as well.

This was back in 2008!!! Still, it makes sense today.

Oil speculation and oil prices - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-ii_Xo_vnI&feature=related)

Just saw a prime example of price manipulation today. Sour gas plant fed by massive sour gas pipeline just gave all of its workers termination notices. Plant and pipeline to be shutdown.

In a year or two I have little doubt we shall see natural gas prices rise due to the artificial shortage created by shutting down some of the supply.

For the record the plant was indeed profitable even at current low prices.

Just saw a prime example of price manipulation today. Sour gas plant fed by massive sour gas pipeline just gave all of its workers termination notices. Plant and pipeline to be shutdown.

In a year or two I have little doubt we shall see natural gas prices rise due to the artificial shortage created by shutting down some of the supply.

For the record the plant was indeed profitable even at current low prices.

It will probably re open once price go up again. :rolleyes: ( pay even less)

Do we have an artificial shortage when farmers decide to grow radishes instead of wheat?

Do we have an artificial shortage when farmers decide to grow radishes instead of wheat?

No ............. we just have a great number of farmers going under due to the fact that an acre of radishes will bring in far less than an acre of wheat.

Gas prices jumped 10c/litre here again today up to $1.199.

Gas prices jumped 10c/litre here again today up to $1.199.

I can't even remember when we were as low as $1.20 here in St.John's. We will be at or just under $1.50 tomorrow morning. :mad:

I can't even remember when we were as low as $1.20 here in St.John's. We will be at or just under $1.50 tomorrow morning. :mad:

It's time pass the savings on to the end user.

It's time pass the savings on to the end user.

Well, NL does produce 13% of Canada's oil ............. but it all goes to the US. Still, we do get royalties, which has made us a have province, and this helps to offset a bit the fact that ON, with 40% of Canada's economic growth, is now a have not province. I am not trying to belittle ON, since they helped out NL over the many years we were a have not province.

Greenies should be happy. They've been begging for Euro gas prices for years. Think of all the happy trees.


Why blame the greenies? I have planted thousands of trees and am getting screwed by the corporations same as you- 20% of my pension goes to fuel now as Iive out of town and do bottle collection etc
My father drilled tar sands at mcmurray in the 40's but the common people will never benefit
r

Why blame the greenies? I have planted thousands of trees and am getting screwed by the corporations same as you- 20% of my pension goes to fuel now as Iive out of town and do bottle collection etc
My father drilled tar sands at mcmurray in the 40's but the common people will never benefit
r

There is no tar in the oil sands, a common misuse of the term. ;)

Why blame the greenies? I have planted thousands of trees and am getting screwed by the corporations same as you- 20% of my pension goes to fuel now as Iive out of town and do bottle collection etc
My father drilled tar sands at mcmurray in the 40's but the common people will never benefit
r

Your father benefited by being offered a job--what more do you expect?

So today I am reading that crude prices are dropping as refiners have not sold what they have. Therefore the price at the pump went up 6¢ a litre. Just in time for the Easter long weekend.

Sure looks like price manipulation to me.

Your father benefited by being offered a job--what more do you expect?
kick below - suck above
Canada has been sold off by the management drones for the old coporate mantra of jobs for the populus lol

There is no tar in the oil sands, a common misuse of the term. ;)
Everybody is an xpert round here - I used to play in it and it smells like tar and is in the sand- thats not good enough for you?

There is no tar in the oil sands, a common misuse of the term. ;)

To be more precise, when extracted it's neither commercial tar nor oil. Both of those are outputs of some kind of a refining process.

It's bituminous sand.

But try selling that word to people.

Why blame the greenies? I have planted thousands of trees and am getting screwed by the corporations same as you- 20% of my pension goes to fuel now as Iive out of town and do bottle collection etc
My father drilled tar sands at mcmurray in the 40's but the common people will never benefit
r

Actually Russel I'm not blaming Greenies for the high gas prices. Just saying many should be happy with it. I recall many global warming advocates begging for expensive fuel to stop people from using so much. Now we have it.

kick below - suck above
Canada has been sold off by the management drones for the old coporate mantra of jobs for the populus lol

Jobs are just one aspect of doing business--they're not the end product. I expect businesses to hire people when they need them, not as charity.

It's time pass the savings on to the end user.

Gas prices are affected by refining capacity, not crude availability.

They can't sell the crude because there isn't the capacity to refine it.

The price of gas is going up because they can't refine it quickly enough to meet the demand.

(and please read up about building new refineries)

As gas prices continue to climb, we'll see some changes beyond the usual grumbling and wringing of hands. People will try to live closer to where they work. Or they will learn to sacrifice other expenses in order to keep up with energy prices. Or they'll try to switch technologies - drive electrics and smaller-engine, fuel-sipping vehicles. Point is, they'll do something. Little choice, really.

If we're really headed to sustained $1.50 or higher gas, we'll all adjust. The sky will not fall.

and real estate in downtown skyrockets!

Wait that's already happening.

Gas for the lowest grade of unleaded is now $1.49.9 here in St.John's this morning. It "only" went up 4 cents overnight. :(

As gas prices continue to climb, we'll see some changes beyond the usual grumbling and wringing of hands. People will try to live closer to where they work. Or they will learn to sacrifice other expenses in order to keep up with energy prices. Or they'll try to switch technologies - drive electrics and smaller-engine, fuel-sipping vehicles. Point is, they'll do something. Little choice, really.

If we're really headed to sustained $1.50 or higher gas, we'll all adjust. The sky will not fall.

And when gas gets high enough, someone will start selling "the next big fuel" for less.

however someone will need to develop the "next big fuel" and we'll need to stop throwing bales of money at oil and stimulate alternative fuel research.

what a conundrum.

however someone will need to develop the "next big fuel" and we'll need to stop throwing bales of money at oil and stimulate alternative fuel research.

what a conundrum.

It's only a conundrum for hidebound thinkers. Nobody threw bales of money at the people who moved us from horses to kerosene to gasoline, or from wood to coal,to natural gas.. The timid notion that technological progress is only possible if bales of money are directed at one place or another is both naive and expensive. Watch the implosion down south of the border of the second huge solar company at which the government threw bales of money.

The next "alternative fuel" will be developed by someone wanting to make a profit at the point where the price of gasoline is consistently and prohibitively high--not at $1.50 or even $2.00 a litre.

It's only a conundrum for hidebound thinkers. Nobody threw bales of money at the people who moved us from horses to kerosene to gasoline, or from wood to coal,to natural gas.. The timid notion that technological progress is only possible if bales of money are directed at one place or another is both naive and expensive. Watch the implosion down south of the border of the second huge solar company at which the government threw bales of money.

The next "alternative fuel" will be developed by someone wanting to make a profit at the point where the price of gasoline is consistently and prohibitively high--not at $1.50 or even $2.00 a litre.

reeeeeeally? :lmao:

Yet you gleefully support the party that loves to throw money at the oil industry.

groove--have a coffee before you post. What does your statement have to do with developing alternative fuels?

Gas prices are affected by refining capacity, not crude availability.

They can't sell the crude because there isn't the capacity to refine it.

The price of gas is going up because they can't refine it quickly enough to meet the demand.

(and please read up about building new refineries)

Until they build more, the price of doing business will be past along to the final recipient of the goods - which means food and other goods are going to sky rocket; stay that way even when the Gas prices come down, becuase they will say it has to normalise -What a way to destroy a recovering economy, those speculators should be stopped some how..

Yeah the usual nonsense rhetoric from the "free atmospheric sewer" proponent.......

groove--have a coffee before you post. What does your statement have to do with developing alternative fuels?

I love how statements suddenly don't make sense once they zero right in on your total hypocrisy.

It's the con way! :baby:

Just a quick note for all you free enterprises out there.... Last week three gas companies were found guilty of price fixing in the Brockville area......so what makes you think it isn't happening here....

but but herr harper thinks the fossil fossils need subsidies....XX)

surely a little collusion will help them survive....

The rhetoric and hyperbole around here are getting a bit much.

There is a difference between a 'direct subsidy' and a 'tax credit'.

The first takes money and gives it to someone.

The second rewards specific behaviours with a marginal lowering of the amount of tax they need to pay.

Oil companies may get tax credits, but they still pay a whole whack of taxes.

Until they build more, the price of doing business will be past along to the final recipient of the goods - which means food and other goods are going to sky rocket; stay that way even when the Gas prices come down, becuase they will say it has to normalise -What a way to destroy a recovering economy, those speculators should be stopped some how..

Who are "they?" This smacks of conspiracy thinking.

Gas will come down again - probably once the summer's toast, I imagine. And then it'll go up again. And it wouldn't surprise me if we go to two bucks in the next few years - and stay there. Should that happen, expect the rise of local food and other goods which don't require being shipped in from long distances using fossil fuels.

The crippling cost of fuel will drive the rise of alternate energies, more aggressive and sensible conservation patterns, more realistic patterns of habitation in our cities and towns.

We could probably all start getting ready by trying to buy local more. Not going to be easy, that.

I just don't see the sudden and miraculous rise of a super-cheap new energy. I wish it were so but it sounds pretty pie in the sky to me. Anyway, all that stuff requires expensive infrastructure. research, trial and error, transition technologies until industry and business "gets it right." In the meantime, we have to stumble along and make the best of it.

The rhetoric and hyperbole around here are getting a bit much.

There is a difference between a 'direct subsidy' and a 'tax credit'.

The first takes money and gives it to someone.

The second rewards specific behaviours with a marginal lowering of the amount of tax they need to pay.

Oil companies may get tax credits, but they still pay a whole whack of taxes.

Exactly. Some people believe that oil companies shouldn't be allowed to deduct exploration costs from their revenue and call this a "subsidy."

Just a quick note for all you free enterprises out there.... Last week three gas companies were found guilty of price fixing in the Brockville area......so what makes you think it isn't happening here....

I don't believe the government should be policing this at all. Let them "fix" prices if they want to--they won't be able to do it for long.

I hope none of the people complaining here about gas prices are thinking of voting for the NDP, Liberals or Greens who all want to place an additional Carbon Tax on gas purchases. Or are you willing to pay more for gas as long as the money is slurped up by the government?

Who are "they?" This smacks of conspiracy thinking.

Gas will come down again - probably once the summer's toast, I imagine. And then it'll go up again. And it wouldn't surprise me if we go to two bucks in the next few years - and stay there. Should that happen, expect the rise of local food and other goods which don't require being shipped in from long distances using fossil fuels.

The crippling cost of fuel will drive the rise of alternate energies, more aggressive and sensible conservation patterns, more realistic patterns of habitation in our cities and towns.

We could probably all start getting ready by trying to buy local more. Not going to be easy, that.

I just don't see the sudden and miraculous rise of a super-cheap new energy. I wish it were so but it sounds pretty pie in the sky to me. Anyway, all that stuff requires expensive infrastructure. research, trial and error, transition technologies until industry and business "gets it right." In the meantime, we have to stumble along and make the best of it.

They are the who ever build more refineries - nothing to confusing there or hidden meaning.
Also prices may come down, but they are always on a up scale.. how do you think we reached this 1.40 per liter?.. up and down and here we are..

I was going to purchase a Tesla S with my brother and his business partner ( 3 of them.. )
2 years ago.. but after dealing them - they could not give us a deal nor a concrete price.. Plus when they did announce the final product.. they wanted the money in whole up front, before we see the product 2 years later.. [ sorry but I am not a winner - to finance vaporware. } As much as I want them to succeed they need to figure out how to do business first. ( in the states they only ask for $7000 deposit..) Fast forward - we are 2 years later and still no car.. Thank God I did not 'invest'

I don't know what you can reasonably expect. There are more people than ever in the big old world and more and more of them want to use fossil fuel for much the same reasons you do. As we use up existing supplies and more hard to extract (read: expensive) sources come on line, you can expect it's a commodity which will always go up - until we reach some tipping point where some other kind of energy/fuel replaces it. It's just going to continue to keep going up, regardless of how many people freak out, cry foul or blame the big bad oil companies.

Your experience with the Tesla is not unique, I imagine. There will likely be other stumbling blocks with other hyped vehicles along the way. Sooner or later someone else's investment will pay off and pay off in a big way. In the meantime all you can do is take a serious look at how you use the energy you do and see if you can't cut it back or make a lifestyle change that will be, in the end, more affordable and less stressful.

The rhetoric and hyperbole around here are getting a bit much.

There is a difference between a 'direct subsidy' and a 'tax credit'.

The first takes money and gives it to someone.

The second rewards specific behaviours with a marginal lowering of the amount of tax they need to pay.

Oil companies may get tax credits, but they still pay a whole whack of taxes.

I well understand the difference, but why are oil companies getting billions in taxpayer subsidies when they are enjoying record profits?

et we can't afford to sustain OAS for seniors between 65-67?

It's about priorities.

As far as gas prices are concerned, I'm not complaining about them. I maybe put 6k a year on my car if that.

If we keep going with this horse thing, the cities will be piled high with manure! We won't be able to clear the streets fast enough!

If we keep going with this horse thing, the cities will be piled high with manure! We won't be able to clear the streets fast enough!

at least we will have green grass - free fertilizer for everyone.

Cost of OAS subsidies in 2011: $28 billion

Tories overestimated OAS costs by hundreds of millions (http://www.canada.com/news/Tories+overestimated+costs+hundreds+millions/6223982/story.html)

Cost of federal subsidies provided by the federal government specifically to oil companies in 2010 according to Climate Action: $840 million

Cost of OAS subsidies in 2011: $28 billion

Tories overestimated OAS costs by hundreds of millions (http://www.canada.com/news/Tories+overestimated+costs+hundreds+millions/6223982/story.html)

Cost of federal subsidies provided by the federal government specifically to oil companies in 2010 according to Climate Action: $840 million

as it wasn't suggested that dropping tax subsidies would totally solve the OAS funding issue, I suggest you step back and try reading a little closer.

The issue of spending/tax policy priorities with this government is a little larger than perhaps you can digest.

But thanks for your lame contribution anyways. Make sure you keep the manure in your livingroom please.

as it wasn't suggested that dropping tax subsidies would totally solve the OAS funding issue, I suggest you step back and try reading a little closer.

The issue of spending/tax policy priorities with this government is a little larger than perhaps you can digest.

But thanks for your lame contribution anyways. Make sure you keep the manure in your livingroom please.

Nothing like actual figures to get your dander up.

No more dander than what you're spreading macfury. Perhaps what I suggested didn't get across. Oh well.

As for actual facts, I suppose it depends on where you go a'googlin'
Canadian oil industry gets almost $3B in subsidies - The Sudbury Star - Ontario, CA (http://www.thesudburystar.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2907122&archive=true)
Canadian oil industry gets almost $3B in subsidies
By MICHEL MUNGER, QMI AGENCY
Posted 1 year ago
MONTRE AL -- Canadian governments spent almost $3 billion subsidizing the oil industry in 2008, according to a recent report.

The International Institute for Sustainable Development is also predicting the subsidies will more than double as a share of government expenditures in 2020, along with oil production.

The policy research institute found federal and provincial governments provided $2.84 billion to support oil production in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland that year.

Ottawa gave $1.38 billion in funds, while Alberta gave $1.05 billion; Saskatchewan $327 billion and Newfoundland $83 million. Researchers found 63 separate subsidy programs, meant to increase exploration and development through tax breaks and royalty reductions.

The report identified where oil producers receive a financial benefit not available to other industries in Canada and used the World Trade Organization's definition of subsidy to determine programs to highlight.

But the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers defends the injection of cash.

"In fact, the programs available to our industry are similar as those in other sectors in Canada and worldwide," said Janet Annesley, a spokesman for the Calgary-based lobby group.

Oil industry gets almost $3B in subsidies: Report | Money | Toronto Sun (http://www.torontosun.com/money/2010/12/27/16683561.html)

Canadian governments spent almost $3 billion subsidizing the oil industry in 2008, according to a recent report by a Winnipeg-based research institute.

The International Institute for Sustainable Development is also predicting the subsidies will more than double as a share of government expenditures in 2020, along with oil production.

The policy research institute found federal and provincial governments provided $2.84 billion to support oil production in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland that year.

Perhaps your methods of accounting is similar to your buddies on Ottawa. Generally followed by, "wow golly gee it was THAT MUCH??? We never kneeeeewww! Well gosh dang it..."

Facts indeed.

Federal subsidies. Read carefully.

http://rabble.ca/news/2011/02/its-time-end-canada’s-billion-dollar-handout-big-oil-and-coal

After two years of stimulus spending and years of tax cuts, Canada's debt has ballooned to $56 billion. Now the Harper government is sharpening the axe. Who will feel the cut? Given the Conservative's position on social spending, they will likely focus on provincial transfers that support healthcare and social welfare.
Meanwhile, the federal government subsidizes oil companies to the tune of $1.4 billion every year, according to the International Institute for Sustainable Development (IISD). It's more if you factor in other fossil fuels such as coal. If the government is looking for ways to pay down the debt, ending fossil fuel subsidies in the 2011-12 budget is a good place to start.

I emphasized it for you in case it wasn't clear this time.

To help with, being "careful".

http://rabble.ca/news/2011/02/its-time-end-canada’s-billion-dollar-handout-big-oil-and-coal



I emphasized it for you in case it wasn't clear this time.

To help with, being "careful".Your comparing the wrong year, groove. But even if I compare different years to make your old figure look better, OAS comes out monstrously ahead as an expenditure.

Your comparing the wrong year, groove. But even if I compare different years to make your old figure look better, OAS comes out monstrously ahead as an expenditure.

you said 2010 macfury. If you took the time to read it, it said, $1.4 billion every year. (I added some more emphasis in case...)

And once again, you need to read my earlier post more carefully, as I said, I never suggested that only the oil tax subsidies would totally fund OAS, and, you are also using the entire cost of OAS, as if the conservatives actually completely cut OAS to 0.

It's an issue of priorities. Again, it seems a thing rather difficult to grasp he?

Once again, you seem to be using the same sort of accounting principles as the Harper conservatives. You know, the ones that were so incredibly sure Kevin Page was wrong on the F35s and now suddenly they were BLINDSIDED by these nasty bureaucrats who misled on oh, 10 BILLION bucks.

:lmao:

It's an issue of priorities. Again, it seems a thing rather difficult to grasp he?

MacFury's priorities are all fiscal ones.

MacFury's priorities are all fiscal ones.

thats the understatement.

However first he needs to get some numbers straight.

you said 2010 macfury. If you took the time to read it, it said, $1.4 billion every year. (I added some more emphasis in case...)

That's right, because they knew what the payout would be in the future. It'll probably be that much in 2066 because the newspaper said EVERY YEAR!

Interesting. Gasoline sales in Canada are roughly 40 billion litres a year. Assuming gasoline was one-third of oil's business, then eliminating the entire $1.4 billion would lower gas prices by a penny a litre. Except,of course, the oil company would add it back to cover the increased cost of exploration.

That's right, because they knew what the payout would be in the future. It'll probably be that much in 2066 because the newspaper said EVERY YEAR!

you're beginning to unravel here. It didn't mention anything about 50 years in the future. You whined that it wasn't the right year, yours being 2010, the article referenced 2011, so I merely highlighted since you, (like a cat on a leash, your usual trick when cornered...) seemed to have missed that one item. It makes your incessant "read carefully" advice all the more funny. But we all know how you love to run around in circles when cornered.

For someone who is really all about freedom from the shackles of taxes, I find your position rather odd, and suspect most of the time. Sonal made the comment that your priorities, are 'fiscal'. It doesn't often come off that way. It seems to me, you merely defend corporate interests. You'll often wriggle when confronted with it, but I've seen your song and dance before.

As I said, it's about priorities. This government, continues to hand billions (ok, 1.4 it seems) in tax subsidies, to an industry that realizes from what I read over a trillion in revenues and are enjoying massive profits, record profits. Not only this, but also the massive corporate tax cuts, all under the guise of "oh my god they won't create any JOBS if we don't!!!" bullcrap you and your believers seem to subscribe to. It goes on. Let's emember the "oh the 10 billion we underestimated on the F35s... you wanna keep playing fast and loose with more numbers? Sure thing.

Meanwhile, we can't seem to fund OAS for seniors, ones that have worked all of their lives paying taxes (gee, where's their big tax cut??? oh right when they balance the budget on their backs...). And all you can do, is try and low ball the tax subsidies to try and support your lame excuse of position, which becomes even more laughable when you try to compare the -entire- cost of OAS to the tax subsidies. What the hell are you smoking?

I'm all for fiscal sanity. I may believe in a well built social safety net, but I don't think there should be free money to anyone undeserving. I don't see your buddies, ENDING the just brain melting golden pensions no average (or even above average...) hard working individual will ever see. I see a government raping and pillaging the people of Canada, while whispering sweet nothings in your ear about fiscal conservatism. It seems all the cons have to do is pretend to kill the CBC, kill the long gun registry, and holler about tax cuts that mostly go to the ultra rich, and the lot of yous jump up and down like clapping monkeys with glee. That's... fiscal priorities????

Sorry my boy, but you are being had. Just as bad as the poor sob who buys the liberals song and dance of caring for people more.

Ok Let's here from all of those concerned by the price of fuel, have you:

checked and maintain proper air pressure in your tires;
keep your engine properly maintained;
stopped idling;
drive with your windows up;
not driving with the air conditioner on;
avoiding "jack rabbit starts" and generally drive more slowly ie. speed limit;
on the highway have you limited your top speed to 55 Km/h?

Really if you haven't done these basic things to reduce fuel consumption, then don't complain about the price of fuel, because the price isn't high enough presently, to change poor habits.

Ok Let's here from all of those concerned by the price of fuel, have you:

checked and maintain proper air pressure in your tires;
keep your engine properly maintained;
stopped idling;
drive with your windows up;
not driving with the air conditioner on;
avoiding "jack rabbit starts" and generally drive more slowly ie. speed limit;
on the highway have you limited your top speed to 55 Km/h?

Really if you haven't done these basic things to reduce fuel consumption, then don't complain about the price of fuel, because the price isn't high enough presently, to change poor habits.

testify!

you're beginning to unravel here. It didn't mention anything about 50 years in the future. You whined that it wasn't the right year, yours being 2010, the article referenced 2011, so I merely highlighted since you, (like a cat on a leash, your usual trick when cornered...) seemed to have missed that one item. It makes your incessant "read carefully" advice all the more funny. But we all know how you love to run around in circles when cornered.

For someone who is really all about freedom from the shackles of taxes, I find your position rather odd, and suspect most of the time. Sonal made the comment that your priorities, are 'fiscal'. It doesn't often come off that way. It seems to me, you merely defend corporate interests. You'll often wriggle when confronted with it, but I've seen your song and dance before.

As I said, it's about priorities. This government, continues to hand billions (ok, 1.4 it seems) in tax subsidies, to an industry that realizes from what I read over a trillion in revenues and are enjoying massive profits, record profits. Not only this, but also the massive corporate tax cuts, all under the guise of "oh my god they won't create any JOBS if we don't!!!" bullcrap you and your believers seem to subscribe to. It goes on. Let's emember the "oh the 10 billion we underestimated on the F35s... you wanna keep playing fast and loose with more numbers? Sure thing.

Meanwhile, we can't seem to fund OAS for seniors, ones that have worked all of their lives paying taxes (gee, where's their big tax cut??? oh right when they balance the budget on their backs...). And all you can do, is try and low ball the tax subsidies to try and support your lame excuse of position, which becomes even more laughable when you try to compare the -entire- cost of OAS to the tax subsidies. What the hell are you smoking?

I'm all for fiscal sanity. I may believe in a well built social safety net, but I don't think there should be free money to anyone undeserving. I don't see your buddies, ENDING the just brain melting golden pensions no average (or even above average...) hard working individual will ever see. I see a government raping and pillaging the people of Canada, while whispering sweet nothings in your ear about fiscal conservatism. It seems all the cons have to do is pretend to kill the CBC, kill the long gun registry, and holler about tax cuts that mostly go to the ultra rich, and the lot of yous jump up and down like clapping monkeys with glee. That's... fiscal priorities????

Sorry my boy, but you are being had. Just as bad as the poor sob who buys the liberals song and dance of caring for people more.

What the hell is that all about? This has nothing to do with the priorities of people on this forum. Most of the fiscal conservatives here think the current government hasn't cut nearly enough. I've been adamant that I don't want to see any excess tax breaks for any business including oil.

I simply don't want to see people pretending that federal oil subsidies approach senior subsidies through OAS.

What the hell is that all about? This has nothing to do with the priorities of people on this forum. Most of the fiscal conservatives here think the current government hasn't cut nearly enough. I've been adamant that I don't want to see any excess tax breaks for any business including oil.

I simply don't want to see people pretending that federal oil subsidies approach senior subsidies through OAS.

I'm not surprised that you once again, pull your usual "I dun unnerstaaaan..." Of course you don't.

While you whine that this government hasn't cut enough, and run to your convenient position that clearly will never happen under the majority governments you gleefully line up to support... you simply refuse to see that not only will this choice government of yours -never- do what you want, (or even close) they are also wasting more money than we can imagine as we're seeing now. And I bet that's going to be just the tip of the iceberg.

And then you continue to bleat that the tax subsidies are no where near the cost of OAS. See that's why meaningful debate is impossible with you right there.