Want to do some more bird photography ( an mammals for that matter down here ).

The Lumix DMC-TZ5 has been much better than my previous one but really shows it's limits when trying to take longer shots.

For instance these guys were about 20 meters away and in excellent light

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m269/macdoc/travel/australia%202012/Myolaroadroosx2-1.jpg

but at full zoom - pretty soft.

I used a bigger Lumix on the Alaska trip and was thrilled at the detail and the speed ( actually caught a glacier calving I hadn't realized the ice block was in mid-air and the detail stayed even when expanded.) Just saw it when I was going through photos.

Generally prefer the Lumix line so what can I get in the $300-500 range that is a quick point and shoot with lots of light gathering but also something I can focus myself if I need to ( a failing of the TZ )

What's the balance point between image sensor size, lens and speed for this sort of intermediate distance.
TIA

[deleted]

You should take a look at the Nikon P500. You should see some of the shots SINC has taken with it and the distance and clarity.

http://www.ehmac.ca/photography-focus/99237-camera-recommendation.html#post1167681

Nikon COOLPIX P500 Camera (http://en.nikon.ca/Nikon-Products/Product/Compact-Digital-Cameras/26257/COOLPIX-P500.html)

A couple of things with pocket cameras.

Absolutely no reason to use maximum resolution. Image capture is usually somewhere around 1 MP with everything higher being interpolated. So using the 2 or 4MP will usually produce better results than the maximum settings. When required interpolation in PhotoShop will be as good as your cameras built-in interpolation.

Make sure the digital zoom bug is turned off. With the possible exception of my Olympus UW camera, digital zooming is best left until later.

Typically pocket cameras use image blurring to hide digital noise, at least at higher ISO settings. Where possible try to avoid higher ISOs and pick the sharpest settings. Amazingly the unsharp mask in PhotoShop Elements does an excellent job of compensating for that blurring.

Anti-shake is accomplished in various ways. Using a high ISO to get a faster shutter speed is usually the least effective anti-shake setting. I actually picked the Kodak Z915 over a similar Lumix, because the anti-shake feature works extremely well at low ISOs and at shutter speeds down to 1/15th of a second. That and the almost non-existent shutter lag were the deciding factors.

It looks like the camera focused on one of the barb wires not the kangaroos.

Have you considered an entry-level dSLR?

I know dSLRs are larger units and usually come with a bucket of options on the side, but the majority of them also come with full-auto or semi-auto modes that are literally the definition of "point and shoot". You look through the view finder and pull the trigger. The response time on most dSLRs is a hundred times better then a pocket camera (or any sort of camera with the lens built-in) in this regard.

Canon's Rebel T3 is a reasonable unit and I've seen them around $550 these days. It's a little bit more then you specified, but if you want flexibility like manual or automatic focusing and the ability to expand your control over other features as well (if you want to), then dSLR is really the way to go. You can also upgrade the lens later on if you feel the unit it comes with is no longer satisfactory.

-DN

+1. Nikon and Canon have excellent entry level camera and you will have more focusing/lighting etc controls.

[deleted]

the TZ5 is 10x Optical zoom and is not active in the Automatic mode which I shoot in. Have never used it and don't intend to.

Focus on the barbed wire - could have - I was trying not to disturb them and so had to take what I could get.

I need more lens - but I also want some speed and I think a larger sensor

this is looking attractive

Panasonic Lumix G1 Review: Digital Photography Review (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicdmcg1/)

long review but part of the summary does it for me

In use the G1 does indeed offer the ease of use of a compact camera - especially if you stick it on fully automatic and ignore the wealth of options and pages of menus. If you've been using a Panasonic FZ series - or any advanced compact camera - you'll feel right at home with the G1. There's a good selection of external controls as well as Panasonic's useful on-screen quick menu, giving the best of two worlds combined. There isn't really any halfway important shooting setting that you can't alter within two button presses at most and the menu structure is fairly intuitive as well which makes the G1 easy to use even for photographers who are new to the brand.

A couple of things with pocket cameras.

Absolutely no reason to use maximum resolution. Image capture is usually somewhere around 1 MP with everything higher being interpolated. So using the 2 or 4MP will usually produce better results than the maximum settings. When required interpolation in PhotoShop will be as good as your cameras built-in interpolation.



Maybe this should be in a new thread but would you be able to explain this point in more detail? I was under the impression (mistaken perhaps) that if a camera like the Nikon Coolpix P7100 has a sensor with 10.39 million pixels total and 10.1 million pixels effective resolution then the total number of light capturing pixels used to create an image was 10.1 million pixels. Isn't the 10.1 million pixels the optical resolution (no interpolation required to get this resolution)?

As has been mentioned, your focus point was wrong.. It was focusing on the barb wire, not the Roos.. S that will play a major part in your problem.. But for what you are trying I (like others) strongly recommend an entry level dslr.. They latest ones are really great for the price you pay, and the options are wide open (depending on budget for lenses).. personally, I shoot with Nikon, so obviously I'm going to recommend at. Even something like a d5000, and get a 70-300 zoom.. You'll be rockin


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In addition to a slight focal error I'd wager this is a good example of the noise reduction characteristics of this camera. There is noise even at base ISO and what does the Venus Engine do? It blurs the noise.

I bought the Nikon D80 because the lenses for it are dirt cheap second hand,
It has the ability to use the newer digital lenses and the older AF and Manual lenses.



:)

Yeah it's annoying since I'm shooting often in fairly think jungle not to be able to manually focus.
Generally the automatic function works well but I can see it hunt badly when confused with foliage of which there is much here.

I also suspect noise tho you are not seeing the raw shot ( bandwidth ) - i will upload the full shot to Photobucket tomorrow at the local coffee shop that has much better high speed.

When it comes to birds - it's almost hopeless unless I get lucky.

I'll post up a spider shot that was lucky - the camera focused perfectly on the spider and left a really neat defocused background.

I also miss framing a shot in the view finder as someone else mentioned.
While I've learned to just shoot a few shots and hope for the best and then trim and frame at home - I would still like the option with a view finder especially in focusing in on specific things in a crowded field depth.

I am going to see if I can get tz to focus centre only on one of the optional settings.

But after using the big Pannie last year in Alaska - I want something similar.

It also had this cool feature that took back to back rapid shots which was good in some action situations. Detail on long shots and the ability to stop things like a helicopter bade was fun. But it was BIG.

••••

Other issue - I'm in hot and humid conditions and carrying the camera in my shirt pocket or the motorcycle jacket inside pocket - I'm wondering if I'm getting some condensation on the lens even tho the camera iris cover is closed.

If that's the case whats the best way to deal with it?? Most every thing I carry gets damp.

this is looking attractive

Panasonic Lumix G1 Review: Digital Photography Review (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicdmcg1/)

long review but part of the summary does it for me

That's from 2009. I believe the current model is the G3. Being an interchangeable lens camera you would have to shell out $ to get long zoom reach which seems to be what you are after, no? Maybe you should go for something like the (non-pocketable) FZ-150 instead and live with the camera size & image noise (which can be tamed pretty well through camera settings and judicious post processing).

As for moisture / condensation... maybe the best solution is to avoid keeping it in your pocket, eh? Use as small a camera case as possible and keep a silica packet in it.

The G3 is pretty highly rated but your average mirror-equipped DSLR is still going to have a significantly larger sensor and of course that means, all things being equal, better image quality.

Also, opting for an interchangeable lens solution (whether M43 or the older, time-honoured standard) entails walking around with a bigger bag carrying your choice of lenses appropriate for whatever subject matter presents itself to you. You have to weigh all these factors in and make a judgement call. It's all about making compromises anyway - mobility / unobtrusiveness vs. the best chance to get off a technically great capture.

My LX5 is something I take most everywhere but it's still not a perfectly pocketable camera - the barrel doesn't retract all the way back into the body - but since it fits into most of my jacket pockets and since its photo quality goes well beyond what my iphone 4 is capable of, it's the one. I keep asking myself how often I would be grabbing a bigger camera kit for my daily jaunts - even though that bigger, more comprehensive system would doubtless take predictably better shots under a significantly larger range of lighting conditions. I am conscious of the trade-offs I make and while it's not a perfect solution by any means, I make do for now.

Since you're a fan of Panasonic, why not also look at some of their larger, more capable bridge cameras? All in one units, decent, even great lens characteristics, and the Venus engine series have come a long way in recent years... the noise issue is much less of a bother. You seem to like capturing animals and birds... some of the Panny bridge models sport some pretty impressive telephoto abilities and they might be fast enough for your purposes.

Also take a look at Nikon's new entries, the V1 and J1. You might like what they have to offer. Sleek, small system cameras with good-sized sensors - I believe it's an intermediary step between M43 and the DSLRS made by Canon and Nikon.

MacDoc: my mistake regarding the new Nikon offerings: their sensor size is smaller than M43. You can go here (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikonv1j1/) and take a look at respective sensor sizes. Glad I checked. Quite the variation in sensor sizes over the whole range.

Thanks - the previous camera was the FZ35 Panasonic I borrowed. - I guess if I used a broad neck strap it would tuck inside the front of the mesh jacket and be accessible quickly.

On a mcycle to be able to shoot without a lot of rigamarole, a case is a hassle and the moisture level in a rain forest runs to 99% anyways. What I'm looking for is a way to get the inevitable moisture film off the lens easily.

Most of my photography will be motorcycle based both here and in Canada so I have to cater to it - I will have a tank bag on the KLR but rather not have the camera subject to the vibration and jarring it would take in the tank bag so I have to wear it in some manner.

•••

I know I need a long lens to do birds properly still trying to figure if there is something off the shelf I can live with - maybe will borrow the FZ again and see as I'm pretty sure I will be happy with the results for most things. I know birds are an issue and as long as I can get a manual focus then think I can deal with it.

I'm very partial to Panasonic and the camera's get passed down to family - very very reliable in my experience and I like the Leica lenses and the stabilization they use.

Apparently there is a Gx that has been announced but not shipping yet....maybe then I can find a previous gen for a decent price but want to handle a unit first. The Pannie dealer here had none of that series in stock. Cairns is not very big.

I'll post up the roo photo in full as it was good lighting conditions and maybe one other I took at full zoom in a darker lighting situation.

Thanks for insight and that sensor guide is very useful.

Thanks for the tip that the G1 was 2009 - the current G3 seems right in my wheelhouse and $649 not bad for my budget.

from this in depth review
Panasonic DMC-G3 In-depth Review: Digital Photography Review (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/PanasonicDMCG3/)

as well as direct on-screen selection of the focus point - something that no DSLR can offer.

and I do like the size tho as the reviews mention it's not a pocket camera but that size I think I can live with.

http://4.s.img-dpreview.com/reviews/Panasonicdmcg3/images/sidebyside2fr-001.jpg?v=1352

http://4.s.img-dpreview.com/reviews/Panasonicdmcg3/images/sidebyside2td-001.jpg?v=1352

The GX does look sweet. But it is another system camera and if you're bombing around on a scooter and packing light is a concern, maybe a system camera is not the way to go.

I dunno, if humidity and moisture concerns are nagging you, an all in one design might indeed be preferable. What about this puppy? (http://www.dpreview.com/products/panasonic/compacts/panasonic_dmcfz150) Mighty long reach for your birding activities and no other lenses to cart around. Not weather sealed though and in any case, even weather sealed cameras might be still vulnerable to extremes of humidity; I just don't know.

I've been repeatedly tempting to buy one of the G-series cameras ever since the G1 came out. But with G3 you might be wanting an extra lens or two, depending on your needs. If however you're just going to stick with one lens then I'd suggest a bridge camera.

The scoots not so much an issue ( the camera stores up front and Canadian conditions not so extreme)
as the KLR is here in rain and rain forest country.

Was actually wondering about an underwater unit or case for here since I will be snorkelling on the Great Barrier Reef which is 1/2 hour offshore.

This would all be for next year. I'd still keep the small camera for rougher rides ( like tomorrow where it's getting very well sealed in double zip locks as I'll be crossing at least 6 creeks/small rivers. ) This one is known

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m269/macdoc/travel/australia%202012/Clohesycrossing2.jpg

I'll likely move the camera and other electronics across first but the rain here is sudden and stupendous quantity at times so I'm very conscious of having to protect all the gear.
Rider just gets soaked then it dries in a few minutes ( if on the highway in the sun ).

•••

I'd likely get one longer lens specifically for birding and when we road trip in the car - since we are doing a cruise to the Baltic Iceland etc in the fall might want it in place for then.

Then the G3 might be the ticket, then. Seems to be highly regarded, especially its newer sensor. Only thing I'm not keen on with the G1, 2 and 3is the plastic, not terribly rugged build. I wish they offered a G variant with a magnesium chassis, something a little tougher. On the other hand, I have to say I'm a huge fan of the fully articulating screens these things boast. Really useful for shooting from odd angles and yes, their image stabilization is excellent as are the Leica lenses.

So... maybe a kit lens for a G3 then a decent telephoto? I wanted to score the G2 when it first came out (and very nearly sprang for it) but what put me off is Panasonic's fantastic but insanely pricey wide angle lens for M43... last time I checked, a $1300 investment. For a guy like me who loves shooting natural and urban landscapes, it would be one sweet, highly-regarded lens. But the price is just beyond beyond. Olympus makes compatible lenses of course but the Panasonic offering wins for image quality. The cool thing for you is that you can look at both Oly and Panny for lenses... in fact, nowadays there's one or two third party lens makers that have jumped into the M43 market.

I've found the small Pannies very durable - maybe I should haul out my old early FZ with 2 MP and drag around with me as a test.
It's what started me on the Pannie line and the picture quality within it's limits is stunning still. I remember being annoyed when the view finder disappeared in the smaller units.

I recall a shot of a flower from 30' away and the crispness and detail were simply astonishing. Sold me on the Leica lens and stabilization forever.

Yeah, my LX5 is a solid metal chassis and it makes a difference - I dropped it once from a good height and the only thing that happened was a small dent by the battery /media compartment door - now it doesn't spring open when I unlatch it and I have to pry it open with a fingernail. A plastic chassis may have been quite another story.

All that aside, the G1 and G2 felt quite solid and well-made when I visited Henry's ... felt good in the hand.

Have you considered going to a 2 camera set-up? It sounds like you want a pocektable camera that is weatherproof/weather resistant camera (e.g. Lumix TS3 or 4) for some situations and another camera with a long zoom (e.g. FZ150 or a ZS-10/20) for birding.

The Panasonic forum on dpreview has had some great birding shots from the FZ-150. I've owned a bunch of the TZ and ZS series cameras (TZ1, TZ3, ZS3 and ZS8) that have been passed on in the family. All are still working well. However, I don't like to use them in the Vancouver rain because of the extending lens. Clearing mist or rain drops off the front element always makes me a little nervous when you see the barrel wobble a little and I hate the idea of bringing moisture into the camera body. Good luck with the hunt

Yeah I really want to try one in hand.

•••

For sure a two camera seems the only sane route - I'll keep the TZ for the rougher use and get a G3 or some such for the birding and road trips in the van.

What I'm looking for in camera is what i see in the 8x20 Zeiss binocs I've enjoyed for decades ( Made in West Germany tells the tale ).
Best $650 I've ever spent I think.

If you can afford the G3 with the new 45-175 lens, go for it. That lens is ridiculously small and light for its reach, and it does not extend when zooming, meaning gravity won't cause the lens to extend when you're simply carrying it (my peeve with the otherwise great bang-for-the-buck 45-200).

On a tight budget, I might look for a G2 + 45-200. Bigger kit, but still very capable.

In the small-sensor realm, isn't the TZ5 four or five years old? I think you'll find the current models with that sensor size (1/2.33") to be more capable, especially those with the SLR-like form factor (FZ series in Panasonic-land, but almost every company sells one). However, they still won't match a system camera's performance; convenience is the big draw.

Thanks - good insight.
Indeed there are some good deals on the G2 on Kiji but the G3 is in the budget tho barely.

Thought my TZ was a bit newer but time flies when you are having fun

Panasonic Lumix DMC-TZ5 Concise Review: Digital Photography Review (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonictz5/)

2008 intro - and I got mine in 2009 I think tho maybe later.

I think it's fine for point and shoot and do want to go back to the view finder plus no matter how good the compact is think for birds I need focusable and a big lens.

Good to know about the capabilities of that lens on the G3 and how compact.
Will be late summer before I buy if even then ( may borrow again )

Some unexpected adventure motorcycling expenses have some up and I have some decisions to make in that regard but camera was later anyway.

My KLR650 bike in the foreground....if I want to hit the trails these locals know I need some more gear and new tires for a certainty.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m269/macdoc/Screenshot2012-02-28atFeb28201243035AM.jpg

This was with the TZ in decent light but is not the original shot. Will try and upload a couple later today at full resolution link.

For this kind of stuff the TZ will be fine - it's really a renewed interest in birding now I'm in Oz for long periods that is the driving force for a second camera.
There were some fruit doves in the forest that were just stunning but distance and low light levels ( the norm for rain forests ) precluded even any attempt.
Click on the image on the side here for a full view of a glorious bird

Superb Fruit-Dove | BIRDS in BACKYARDS (http://birdsinbackyards.net/species/Ptilinopus-superbus)

Got a whole new life list of down under birds to cover off and in some cases taking a photo makes it easier to identify later.

I'm going to review the camera's I have first tho and see how they are. I think I have a Canon intermediate I am not using.

By late summer, you can expect all the pricing to have changed again, mostly downward (though that's not guaranteed with lenses).

The previous-gen Panasonic 12MP sensor in the G1 and G2 (and every Olympus m43 camera to date, except for the new OM-D) is way more capable than a lot of online chatter makes out. It definitely lags most APS sensors of similar vintage, but it still blows away any P&S sensor. If you wind up with a G2, you will notice a big improvement in performance. The G3 has a newer, indisputably better sensor than the G2.

Keep an eye out for GH2 deals too. An even better camera all around, and occasionally prices have dropped to within a whisker of the G3. If the GH3 comes any time soon, you might see it dip to around $500 on closeout.

Also, Panasonic sometimes has special deals, at least through select retailers (B&H, Adorama): buy certain bodies and add certain lenses at a discount, usually $100 off. There are no such deals going right now AFAIK, but they're worth watching for.

Handled the G3 today - nice size and that lens is very cool - unfortunately was out of battery so could not play.

However there was some Panasonic in between with a smallish body and a much larger lens. Do not remember the model. Will try and find.

Hmmm this I think GF2- guess that's the other option being suggested.

http://panasonic.com.au/~/media/Images/Product%20Catalogue/Lumix/G%20Micro%20Series/DMC-GF2/DMC-GF2-K-Slant_new.ashx?h=240&thn=0&w=430

Lumix GF2, digital camera, digital camera reviews, best digital camera, lumix camera reviews, (http://panasonic.com.au/Products/Lumix/G+Micro+Series/DMC-GF2/Overview)

Nikon and Canon are excellent

The GF2 is a nice camera, but I think if you're going to be using long lenses regularly for birding and the like, you'll be happier with a built-in viewfinder.

There is an accessory electronic viewfinder for the GF2, but to be blunt, it's a POS. The kind of thing to use when the sun completely washes out the LCD, not a good viewfinder for frequent/regular use.

The G3 also has the benefit of a fully articulating LCD. A feature that sounds like pure gimmick... until you use one.

Thanks - much appreciated information.

Here is the link to the original files from the ride

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m269/macdoc/travel/australia%202012/kanga.jpg

and another on the ride on Monday

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m269/macdoc/travel/australia%202012/rainforestbreakclohesy.jpg

and this with a mud lark up in the branches at full range

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m269/macdoc/travel/australia%202012/peeweeraw.jpg

all were full zoom and all could benefit from being able to go in further....while I can zoom in on the computer - it gets soft all too soon.