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The news via coffee row

3K views 29 replies 11 participants last post by  BigDL 
#1 ·
I spend my time with retired people. Some watch the news faithfully just in case the world ends and they miss it. Others, like me are content to let the world carry on without our guidance. If something momentous happens, someone here at ehMac will alert me, or more frequently, I'll hear about it on coffee row.

This week, the main topic of conversation had to do with the new requirement for the removal of face coverings at citizenship court. Support for the government's stand on this issue is unanimous.

I spoke out against the "this is a christian country" faction and found myself standing alone.

Alrighty then.

In support of the no veils argument (did you think they would stop arguing just because they are all on the same side :D) several people expressed the opinion that covering one's face is not a requirement of any religion.

Hmm.

Last evening, I attended a turkey supper at the neighborhood seniors' centre. I went in my ubiquitous jeans and t-shirt. As I was exiting the cloakroom, I found myself in step with a clone of Elizabeth Taylor (ok, without the added poundage) there wasn't a hair out of place, makeup was expertly troweled on to hide every wrinkle, sparkly expensive dress, jewelry befitting a red carpet, exquisite shoes and cute little purse to match. As we strolled along, I complimented her on her appearance, and shared that in retirement, I vowed to only go to jeans appropriate events. She was shocked! But being the well-trained arm candy she obviously was, she caught her breath and then managed, "you have to dress up, it's Christmas."

We soon went our separate ways, but something bothered me about the encounter.

Back on coffee row, conversation swirls around how many cards and letters they've written and agony over those friends and relations they might have to cross off the list and sharing strategies for doing so eg. they haven't received an acknowledgement for the cards in the past 2, 3, 5, years. I share that if my friends and relatives catch me on Skype, I'll talk to them otherwise, they would rather get an email and so would I. The good ladies snipe in response, "it's Christmas, you have to send cards, and write letters to put in them."

CHRISTMAS BAKING, now there's a topic that can consume most of a morning. You'd think these elderly ladies were still feeding a threshing crew.

Being the chronic sœt disturber that I am, I suggest that maybe someone else in their family could make the shortbread this year, or, with an evil chuckle, I mention the tempting baked goods at Safeway (and we get a free bus to take us there every Wednesday) "it's Christmas, you have to do the baking."

Is there a religious requirement for any of this?
"you have to dress up, it's Christmas."
"it's Christmas, you have to send cards, and write letters to put in them."
"it's Christmas, you have to do the baking."

These folks have been programmed to maintain these traditions. Fine. But these are the same God-fearing, upstanding "Christians" who snarl and scoff about a woman's right to adhere to her family tradition of wearing a veil, while at the same time stubbornly clinging to traditions that have nothing to do with the religious requirements of their faith.

Maybe veils should be banned but many of our traditions don't make any sense either and certainly have no religious requirement even though they are strongly tied to a religious celebration.

Full disclosure: I would like to have had this discussion on coffee row, but nobody would listen. Also, I'm not religious although I firmly believe in a universal power. My faith has no dress code, nor does it require me to bake or communicate unwillingly.
 
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#3 ·
There are a lot of things about religion - all of 'em - that raise my hackles. Ultimately, respecting one's beliefs and cultural traditions can be challenging, particularly when they butt up against our own. Living in an ever-more multicultural society can be exhausting....

 
#4 ·
I am bombarded by emails daily from seniors who want attention on my web site. Since I am one myself, I give those emails due consideration and toss half of them, writing them off as whiners.

On the other hand, I get some groovy stuff from my elderly friends who are bright, attentive and have a wonderful sense of humour. We gather at the local legion for a pint a couple of times a month to compare practical jokes. :D

But hang out with them all the time? NEVER!

I hit The Local three afternoons a week or so, and talk to the kids. You know, the ones between 18 and 50. I am always surprised what I learn from them every week.

The odd time they tell me they learn a thing or two in reverse and that's fine by me. A healthy respect for one another feels pretty good as I begin to stare my seventies in the face in a couple of years.

I absolutely value all my friends, be they 18 or 80. The main thing is they are friends and the variety they provide me with makes me feel 35 or so. Ya gotta get out more Margaret! :D
 
#6 ·
I absolutely value all my friends, be they 18 or 80. The main thing is they are friends and the variety they provide me with makes me feel 35 or so. Ya gotta get out more Margaret! :D
I know I need to get out more :D

The point I was trying to make was that the same people who stubbornly cling to traditions that no longer serve a purpose and have become a chore rather than a delight, are very quick to condemn anyone whose traditions are different.
 
#8 ·
Some thoughts

From what I read, full covering appears to be custom as opposed to religion. I had occasion to see photos from Iran at the time of the Shaw and from Egypt on the beach in the 1950's. The appearance of the people was very different that what would be seen today in these locations.

I have some problems with face covering / full body covering, but it is really a true conflict.

On one hand, this is a free country and people have the right to dress and do as they will. That is a part of the freedom.

The other side is that this is a free country and we have certain rights. I and everyone else has the right to come and go as we please, alone or attended as we wish. For women, this is not trivial as throughout most of recorded history a woman leaving the home unattended was an invitation to robbery and rape.

With this I/we also have obligations. I cannot just shoot or otherwise kill or injure someone who offends or I think threatens me. I have to prove necessity, which at Canadian law is not easy. I would have to prove that I had no other choice to stop from being injured or worse. So I do have the obligation to be diligent and aware of my surroundings and take those reasonable actions required to keep me from being in a position of necessity (Hence my real hatred of people obliviously walking around texting or jogging with ear buds in - but that is another rant). Full covering and head covering prevents me from fulfilling that obligation. I cannot read who or what they are. To me it is a disguise. One cannot even accurately determine the sex of the person (though we do assume female), let alone identify that person at some later date.

To put that in perspective, if I were to dress up in black shoes, black jeans, black turtleneck, black over coat and a black balaclava and walk down Yonge Street or walk into a school yard or walk into a jewelry store or bank, I would hope to hell that some police officer would challenge me immediately. If they don't, you and 10 of your buddies should.

Another perspective, I would not pull over for an RCMP or OPP vehicle if manned/womaned by a person in full body and head covering. I cannot identify this person as someone who actually has the right to impede my coming and going + It is probably not safe to talk to this person.

As for the uncovering of the face being mandated for certain functions:

1. Anything involving security as outlined above to me is fair game.

2. Regarding oaths, such as the oath of citizenship and other simlar functions, I would also approve of mandatory uncovering. You are making a proclamation to all, to be witnessed by all. You should be fully identifiable to my way of thinking. I don't confuse this with going to the mosque, church or synagogue. There, if you are of faith, you are witnessed by God, who would see and identify though any covering. They are not the same thing.

So yes, I can see a real conflict there.

there is also the issue of what is normal for a person and comfortable. I am still thinking that one through.
 
#9 ·
It's not just a 'tradition' though ...

It's interesting that in Saudi Arabia women are legislated to wear full body covers, not for their modesty, but in order not to 'tempt' the men. Apparently men are unable to control their baser instincts and cannot be expected not to turn into raping animals if the women 'tempt' them.

No, really.

So, I view 'clothing choice' as one of those things that can possibly be used to subjugate women. When the Taliban was in charge in Afghanistan, women not wearing full burkas are subject to beating. This is not a 'tradition' because until the Russians invaded Afghanistan in the '80s, Afghanistan was a very progressive country, and women had all the rights of, and dressed very similarly to western women. The USA supported the Taliban, who, when they got into power, stripped women of all their rights, and imposed a 'religious law' on them that essentially made them property of their husbands, removing their rights to education, to work, to seek medical care, or to function independently.

So, wearing a face covering, if it is truly a woman's 'choice', needs to be her 'choice', and not imposed upon her by others. And she needs to make an informed decision. (In Saudi Arabia, women have no rights, and if they are raped, the man isn't prosecuted for 'rape', if he's prosecuted at all it's because the husband or the father of the woman accuses him of 'adultery', and the woman is considered equally culpable. No wonder women are hidden away ...)

But we live in Canada and absolutely all people need to have equal rights and responsibilities. And choices.

And, I like to think, our men are capable of rational thought. Aren't you, guys?

As far as 'removing face coverings when taking oaths' ... of course they should. They should also have to whenever facial identification is required. (airport security, etc.)
 
#15 ·
Not that long ago, even in North America, women were the property of first their father and then when they wed, they became the property of their husband.

I can't cite a source, but I believe that the wedding veil was a symbol of the father's ownership and control. When the veil lifted, ownership and control passes to the new husband. I doubt the current observation of the tradition carries the same meaning.

I strongly believe that remnants of male ownership remain in our courts today.
 
#17 ·
I thought there was a veil involved in the story of Leah and Rachel (Genesis 29 in the Bible), but having just read through it again, there is deceit, but no veil.

Interesting though that Jacob marries his cousins. And he has interesting morals in Chapter 30.

So, if you want to live your life like they did in the Bible, it's okay to marry your cousins, sleep with their servants, and cheat your father-in-law. It's in the Bible! beejacon
 
#16 ·
On Christmas Traditions and Burkas

We really do not follow many of the traditions in this family.

We gave up presents about 15 years ago. I kind of got sick of going to Walmart to watch frantic women scolding their kids into submission two days before Christmas.

We never did do a whole lot of Christmas Cards. Now I do an email, usually Christmas day when there is not much going on.

My experience is that the resistance to this has been and remains absolutely fierce.

My sister in law absolutely refused to quit sending presents. And we absolutely refused to send any.

Just two days ago, I had a fellow give us a present that we did not ask for and did not want. He was really upset when I told him I did not want anything. I ended up taking it to keep peace. It now sits on a shelf unopened in my basement ( I know what it is).

I am at that point in my life that I am looking to pare down things not collect things. I never was a person who took great joy in having a cavalcade of crap coming continually through the door. I knew the things I wanted and once I had them, I was happy for them being there.

My wife went visiting up north and stopped in to see some people we knew a few years ago, at the behest of one of the spouses. The other one was not happy as we were not sending them Christmas cards and let it so be known. This was in July.

What we are running into is a violation of what these people consider "Proper". It's "Proper" because it has always been proper and should always be proper - Q.E.D.

Back to burkas. If you grew up wearing a burka every time you were out in public, chances are for you it is "Proper", just as above. The smarmy answer is "This is Canada - Get over it. We are progressive and do not think like that."

So, Google is your friend here. Go and do a search for "Breast Cancer" Brassiere. You will come up with a ton of articles. They all center on about three things:

1. Where women never wear bras, the incidence of breast cancer for women is the same as the incidence for men. In Canada that is about 1/100,000 people. The current rate of breast cancer for all women in Canada is 105/100,000. This is an incidence 2 orders of magnitude higher than for men.

2. It appears to have something to do with constriction of the lymph nodes by the bra harness

3. It also appears to have something to do with the immobilization of the breasts by the bra, reducing or eliminating the lymph pumping action of the natural breast movement.

Now you go out and try to sell this. Go to your local coffee shop or watering hole and throw out that bras should be banned in Canada. If you really want to be abused, try to tell a mother how improper it is for her to be harnessing up her daughter.

It will not sell. You see, in Canada, it is "Proper" to wear a bra.

Now if you want total abuse, tell them to "Get over it. We live in a progressive country."

Whether a burka is religious or not. I can see some fierce resistance to change because for some people, not wearing it is not "Proper".
 
#19 ·
Interesting about cousins marrying. When I was young, I read a lot of Harlequin Romances. In most of them, the "romance" revolved around cousins. There didn't seem to be a prohibition against them marrying.

Of course the stories were totally unbelievable. Tell me why a poor, lonely spinster shopgirl just happens to have enough stunning frocks in her closet that the author can waste several pages on the agonizing decision of which to wear? :D:D
 
#20 ·
Back in university, I did not bring any fiction with me to school so that I would read textbooks instead of novels, but one year my roommate had a bunch of Harlequins lying around and I breezed through them in order to have something to read.

My favourite unbelievable story was the one about the young widow whose kind, elderly husband had graciously left her 'untouched' for the two years they were married before he passed away, so that when she actually met her true love she was as naive and virginal and very, very rich.
 
#21 ·
I too had a university roommate who read Harlequins, which was my introduction to the genre. Lots of sighing and meaningful glances, but not much else. It was a fairly innocent way to pass an afternoon back then. The next time I read one was a decade later when I was in the hospital and bored to tears, so picked one up from the hospital lounge. Boy-o-boy had they changed in the interim! I'd just been through childbirth, but the descriptions were rather more than I was prepared for! (Makes me blush just remembering!)

But yes ... the one true love always wins, despite the tortuous path taken.
 
#22 ·
"it's Christmas" or "because it's Christmas" are phrases that are the bane of my existence.

People have been put under enormous stress because of these phases. Depression, hospitalization, despair, economic ruin and suicide in attempts to "keep up" with the expectations imposed by these phrases.

I agree with you winwintoo, people should be able to do that, only that they are comfortable with.
 
#25 ·
Yeah well, except that in our traditions if you don't bake the shortbreds you don't end up a victim of an honor killing.
 
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