they have their own inferior versions of iTunes, iPhoto, Dashboard and finder. IT IS SO SAD.

Come into the ehmac chat room...we are all watching the keynote live and discussing...

I installed the latest public version of Vista which was Beta 2 build 5270 for a week to evaluate over the holidays at work and it was not close to the G*d-send that Microsoft promised. There is a fantastic amount of clean up and optimizations that need to be done. There are also so many useless and awful design elements that they have added and I hope never make it into the final release candiates.

The Mac bashing/Windows cult users are a bit jaded not to realize that there are many "borrowed" elements from Mac OS X and seem to become very violent in some of the Windows forums I read when anyone seems to drop the word Apple or Macintosh. Many of them seem to have never touched Mac OS X and base everything on OS 7/8/9.

I welcome the security changes that Microsoft is making but I honestly think the time has come to abandon the Windows kernel and start from scratch. Piling more bricks onto the wall won't help it's stability in the long run......

.....Ok back to drinking Steve's coolaid :D

The Mac bashing/Windows cult users are a bit jaded not to realize that there are many "borrowed" elements from Mac OS X and seem to become very violent in some of the Windows forums I read when anyone seems to drop the word Apple or Macintosh. Many of them seem to have never touched Mac OS X and base everything on OS 7/8/9.


.....Ok back to drinking Steve's coolaid :D
And I would say that Apple "borrowed" many elements from MS. When I first fired up 10.4 and saw all the "apple-rigth-click" options it reminded me of XP.

What I see happening is that consumers are getting another level of abstraction between them and the machine. If this is good or not, I'm not sure.

Mac OS has had right-click since OS 8.

To be fair to MS, Vista is still a beta. Presumably, optimization will progress. And my god OS X was FAR from optimized when Apple hilariously deemed it "Golden Master" :lmao: it's gotten faster with every rev, however.

Right but don't forget that Vista is really windows NT version 8 (or is it 9 or 10 by now). It's a very large pile of crap^H^H^H^H code that they just keep adding more and more things onto. Also more and more things promised in Vista keep falling by the wayside and instead are being replaced with inferior versions of OSX wannabe applications.

Windows has copied Apple since day one. It's very rare that you see it the other way around.

Right but don't forget that Vista is really windows NT version 8 (or is it 9 or 10 by now). It's a very large pile of crap^H^H^H^H code that they just keep adding more and more things onto. Also more and more things promised in Vista keep falling by the wayside and instead are being replaced with inferior versions of OSX wannabe applications.

Windows has copied Apple since day one. It's very rare that you see it the other way around.

I couldn’t agree with you more. For example Windows XP was just a facelift of Windows 2000 Professional. They both share the same programming model; the kernels are pretty much identical to each other. I gave up on Windows a long time ago, I have recommended Mac to everyone I know. I have gotten allot of people to switch and since then have told me they never want to go back to Windows.

Any link to pics from their version of iTunes, etc.?? What keynote are you talking about?

Any link to pics from their version of iTunes, etc.?? What keynote are you talking about?

You can watch the replay here:

http://www.microsoft.com/events/executives/billgates.mspx

FWIW, I think it's great that Microsoft is taking influence and actually including features that actually work well into Longhorn. When I go on a Windows based PC I really miss Expose, and having an Expose style alt-tab I think is great.

That said, the design implementation still reeks of taking an existing idea and trying to refine it using corporate bereaucracy leading to a focus group that comes up with an idea that causes the idea to have it's implementation crippled. WMP 11 anyone? So much possibility, so little progress in usability.

From what I see, Vista's new Alt-Tab is very ineffective.

From what I see, Vista's new Alt-Tab is very ineffective.
Explain...
Looked good to me.

Well, I haven't had time to look at Bill's keynote, and maybe they've changed the way it works from before. Last time I saw it, it was stacking the windows as a profiled "deck of cards". If it is still the same, there are problems with this as I see it. later today, I'll be able to check out the video and offer my thoughts on it (seeing as you demanded -- er, I mean, "asked" ;) ).

What's this about Microsoft's version of iTunes, they've had this ever since Windows Media Player 7 the library style browsing thing. It actually took me awhile to get used to the iTunes interface although I eventually grown to really appreciate the iTunes interface once I bought my own iPod, but Windows Media Player has always held its own. Musicmatch had library style browsing way before Windows or Apple did and I'm sure Musicmatch wasn't the first either.

The stacked windows concept is the closest Microsoft can get to a working exposé model without actually copying exposé. Given that “all the good ideas have been taken” Microsoft is limited to what they can do without being brutally flamed by the mac community.
From what i see, their concept will work well. Although not as good as apple's rendition, I still believe it will be effective.

I do like the "deck of cards". I think that it will work well.
Used to be F keys were useless, now I have conflicting commands (F12 for widgets and return to saved in PhotoShop)...

You can watch the replay here:

http://www.microsoft.com/events/executives/billgates.mspx

Nice link, Woody! Quite bookmarkable!

What, no quicktime stream? LOL j/k

I do like the "deck of cards". I think that it will work well.
Used to be F keys were useless, now I have conflicting commands (F12 for widgets and return to saved in PhotoShop)...
The live preview of the document you are working on is way over due, but its nice to see a feature like that. It will still be slow to find the document you are looking for (possibly slower if your hardware can't draw the graphics fast enough), but its a step in the right direction.

Trev

Explain...
Looked good to me.

I've now watched it, so okay.

Their ALT-TAB, which isn't the same as what I've seen in the past (called "Flip 3D", see below) is an improvement over Windows ALT-TAB to date. It's not as efficient as Expose, however, because the preview thumbnails are not scalable to take advantage of the entire display like Expose's are (see attached screenshot from their keynote). Vista's ALT-TAB also still shows you background documents in their full size behind the ALT-TAB thumbnail palette. This is useless , as one is ALT-TABBING in order to use a window different from the one in the background, and the result is also that the thumbnails are small and the overall appearance on the display is quite cluttered. So, I think they missed the boat a little there.

As for the Flip 3D feature, just look at it in action and you can see how you will either have to TAB repeatedly to find the one you want, or even TAB repeatedly to get to a window that you might see buried in the queue of stacked windows. A very inefficient gimmick in my opinion (see attached screenshot from their keynote).

In both cases, they did not demo any drag-and-drop capability between ALT-TABBED windows like you can do with Expose (which doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but...?!). To me, this is the killer ace up Expose's sleeve that has added another efficient manner to juggle data and NOT just juggle documents. For anybody here who doesn;t understand this aspect of OS X's Expose, click here to check it out (http://www.ambrosiasw.com/news/upcoming/images/spx2_panther_expose_drag.mov)!

A thing I liked was the quicktabs in IE. It's Expose in a web browser. I miss this when tab-browsing in current browsers.

Their live icon previews in the Taskbar is just like the Dock, only a little more labour intensive.

They've got program Spotlight-like live searching in the Start Menu! Cheeky monkeys! :P

BTW, that Expose drag-drop menu quicktime demo is shown its use quite slowly in order to clearly show what's happening. You can either wait for the pause before a window you're hovering over is unexposed, or hit the F9 key to unexpose your windows. Hitting F9 while hovering greatly increases efficiency. A great way to use Expose is to use a multi-button input device and assign some Expose modes to the buttons on your device. Then, you can just click with your baby finger for example and blast in and out of Expose, easily.

'My God, it's full of flaws...' duh, duh, duh-duh...

LMFAO!!! :lmao: Get a load of THIS:

http://homepage.mac.com/vito/real_vista_episode_1.mov

LMFAO!!! :lmao: Get a load of THIS:

http://homepage.mac.com/vito/real_vista_episode_1.mov

LMAO!!!! That is freakin funny!!!!:lmao:

The guy labeled it as "Episode 1". I look forward to 2!

Hell I still can’t stop laughing!! It’s funny because its true Microsoft copies Apple all the time.

Yeah and Windows users will still think that M$ invented that stuff.

lol that's a great video
who's talking there?

oh and when he was talking about dragging the fox sports news on the desktop if you want to see more, can we drag a widget to the desktop is tiger?

I usually steer away from comment on this issue, but after watching that vid and hearing Gates go on about 'Windows sideshow' and 'Windows sideview' and (my favorite, 'gadgets'
I feel really angry.
Really Really angry.
I know that a lot of 'borrowing' goes on in the software world, but you would think that a company with as much resources as M$ could do a lot better on the innovation side of things.

James

Actually, that was a Windows project manager, not Bill Gates speaking. The audio was pulled from this presentation at CES this week:

http://news.com.com/1606-2_3-6018907.html?tag=ne.vid

lol that's a great video
who's talking there?

oh and when he was talking about dragging the fox sports news on the desktop if you want to see more, can we drag a widget to the desktop is tiger?
Dragging a widget to the desktop only results in space clutter, that's why there is a Dash Board. :).

I am sure Vista will be perfectly secure ... just don't turn your PC on :)

Windows Media Player 11

With version 11, Windows Media Player (WMP) is undergoing a metamorphosis into something special. This is kind of tragic, frankly, because virtually no one will even appreciate what happened until Apple rips them off in the next major version of iTunes.

http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/winvista_5270_02.asp

The guy on this website claims that iTunes will one day copy the new features in WMP11, but then says that Windows Picture Viewer (?) is a total ripoff of iPhoto, so I guess some interesting stuff there.

they have their own inferior versions of iTunes, iPhoto, Dashboard and finder. IT IS SO SAD.

Okay Windows Media Player has been around for quite awhile, I believe since 1999 or 2000. iTunes came out around the time the iPod was introduced, around 2001? I used Windows Media Player for managing my music until late 2004 when I tried to wean myself onto iTunes in anticipation of one day buying a Mac computer to replace the PC I started to hate so much. In Janaury 2005 I finally got my very first iPod and I was hooked. I quickly re-ripped my CD collection into iTunes, but it did take awhile for me to get used to iTunes.

The way I see it the more Bill Gates attempts to innovate the more Steve Jobs needs to truly innovate again. Competition is good for the consumer.

iTunes did not come out simultaneously with the first iPod, Dona; it's release was several months before the first iPod, and was mac-only until late 2003:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITunes_version_history

http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/winvista_5270_02.asp

The guy on this website claims that iTunes will one day copy the new features in WMP11, but then says that Windows Picture Viewer (?) is a total ripoff of iPhoto, so I guess some interesting stuff there.
The big WMP11 feature Paul Thurrot from that site is toting is the "visual library" where it allows you to browse all of your music by different criteria, but show the Album art along with it. BFD. Most of the time I have no idea what songs are on what albums anyway, so what good is it going to do for me to see the album art? Its certainly not going to help me find my music faster.

Check out the rest of the articles, its astounding how similar the features in Vista are to what we have now in Tiger, and truthfully what we've had for a few years now. Windows Calendar = iCal (just look at it, its a bloody photocopy) Windows DVD Maker HD = iDVD. Windows Photo Gallery appears to be a poor copy of iPhoto. Its really disgusting, and to read Paul's comments about when Apple will rip off Microsoft and virtually ignore the obvious ripping off happening right in front of him is even more so. To quote:
With version 11, Windows Media Player (WMP) is undergoing a metamorphosis into something special. This is kind of tragic, frankly, because virtually no one will even appreciate what happened until Apple rips them off in the next major version of iTunes.

Trev

It's funny how MS thinks that Vista's transparent window frames is going to make the screen real estate more efficient but it only clutters up the desktop. Soon after screenshots of this came out several months ago, someone made a Shapeshifter theme that mimics it (Shapeshifter is a system-wide skinning app for OS X). I tried to like the concept (it looks cool in screenshots and demos) but quickly came to hate it (it sucks in practical use).

If MS really wanted to maximize screen real estate, they'd dump the stupid concept of multiple -- redundant -- local command menus and toolbars, and adopt a single, universal, Fitt's Law compliant menu-bar instead. It would be the best idea they ever ripped off from Apple.

It's funny how MS thinks that Vista's transparent window frames is going to make the screen real estate more efficient but it only clutters up the desktop. Soon after screenshots of this came out several months ago, someone made a Shapeshifter theme that mimics it (Shapeshifter is a system-wide skinning app for OS X). I tried to like the concept (it looks cool in screenshots and demos) but quickly came to hate it (it sucks in practical use).

Agreed, having everything transparent just for the sake of transparency is stupid. There ARE practical uses for it, and I think it should be used if an application is in the background (as an example) or maybe if you're dragging a window or application around the screen. From what I have seen so far of Vista it has LOADS of eye candy, but none of it is very practical or useful. Yes, Mac OS X has some eye candy for eye candy's sake as well, but Apple uses a lot of it for practical and usability reasons. The Genie effect is a good example, and Dashboard fading in and out is a good use, as well. Lets not forget Exposé.

Trev

If MS really wanted to maximize screen real estate, they'd dump the stupid concept of multiple -- redundant -- local command menus and toolbars, and adopt a single, universal, Fitt's Law compliant menu-bar instead. It would be the best idea they ever ripped off from Apple.
Does Apple has some sort of patent on this? I mean, if M$ rips that, it'll be too obivous to let it go!

Frankly, I don't know if it is unique to Mac OS or not, no whether or not Apple has a patent on it. :confused:

Ya know, I remember Steve's last Stevenote (http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/specialeventoct05/index.html), announcing the new G5 iMac with built-in iSight (the first announcement in his address), and recalled just how much fun not only he but the audience had with Photobooth. Like, Photobooth is pretty useless -- a thing made seemingly just for the hell of it -- but even a little piece of wank-off software is still made awesome when it is made by Apple. it works so well and also has such a cute character (and God we're talking SOFTWARE here). And using the screen itself as a flash??! Man, THAT is pure genius and I'll bet the boys at MS would never had stopped to consider that.

But, I guess my main point is that Steve and the audience was having so much natural fun with Photobooth that it made me realize how such vibes are nonexistent at MS events. Watching all of those uncomfortable tech execs and actors trying to spark some action on the stage at CES last week was totally pitiful (despite Tom Hanks' best efforts). And the disaster for Bill Gates and Conan O'Brien at WinHEC back in the spring was an abysmal one!

Apple rocks. Steve Rocks. Yay us ;)