How would you rank these four? I am putting them in my own order

Freedom - Individual Freedom
Liberty - National Independence
Peace - absence of large scale warfare
Justice - Social Justice, equality of outcomes

Justice
Peace
Freedom
Liberty

Is this a test? ;)

Peace - absence of large scale warfare


So, low-intensity guerrilla warfare is good? ;)

A test without wrong answers. :D

Justice & Peace *
Freedom
Liberty

* I firmly believe that where there is Justice there will be peace, and therefore these two are two sides of the same coin. It is possible to have temporary peace without justice, but it is unstable and will inevitably decay into struggle for justice.

Good question though.

Cheers

So, low-intensity guerrilla warfare is good? ;)


I didn't want to just come out and say it. What would people think?? :D :D

Here are some other characteristics of life that we might want to throw into the mix (in no particular order):

Security - confidence in one's personal safety and ability to meet basic needs
Wealth - ability to fulfil one's desires above and beyond basic needs
Health - absence of acute or chronic illnesses or injuries
Education - access to quality opportunities for the development of skills and knowledge

Cheers

bryanc, with respect to your previous ordering of Dudirenos set:

Health (if you don't have it, not much else matters)
Education (empowers an individual with choices - relates to Freedom)
Security (everyone needs some level of security but education helps reduce paranoia and increases self-sufficiency)
Wealth (no one needs it, but it does have its benefits....)

1-Justice - Social Justice, equality of outcomes

A No-brainer; there can be no Freedom nor Liberty nor Peace without Justice in a society (it's not a prerequisite if you live in isolation).

Justice must not only be fair but also "must be seen to be fair"; it must be open and those who we give the duty of administering justice must also take the responsibility for their use and misuse of any tools we grant them to aid their good work.

Freedom - Individual Freedom
Most societies might classify Freedom as freedom from oppression. The rest naturally follows, and Individual Freedom has to exist in balance with the rights of others and the need to maintain law and order. Individual Freedom can only exist in concert with Individual Responsibility.

Liberty - National Independence
Again, Liberty does not rely on independence; nor is independence a guarantee of Liberty. National Independence itself is better described as Sovereignty. Personal Liberty is akin to Justice, Freedom and Peace rolled into one.

Peace - absence of large scale warfare
Your definition is OK, but there are many. I would not trade Justice or Personal Liberty for absence of warfare; in fact I would embrace warfare to preserve them.

In my mind peace is a local situation that also implies freedom of movement with an expectation of peace wherever you may find yourself.

It could also simply mean the absence of insurgency or lawlessness, a situation that is fairly common in oppressive regimes, a form of Peace I would not willfully settle for.

I'm a little confused by something here, especially in the original post.

"Justice - equality of outcomes"

I thought most conservatives considered equality of <i>opportunity</i> the ideal, and equality of <i>outcomes</i> a commie pipedream. But I also thought the OP was an uncompromising conservative. :confused:

Discussion without definitions is pretty useless.
That first list is shall we say ......foggy.

Dude.. society is built on interactive pillars - not some linear list.
Components are individuals, family units, corps, institutions governmental and institutions non gov ( NGO ).
There are transactional interchanges between all of these components and most advanced societies have either or both of a body of common law or a founding document ( Charter or Constitution ) that guides interactions between the components.
Rights offset resposibilities.
It's hard in a first world society to opt out tho some try.
Others - often corporations or entire industries as shown below manipulate the interactive process to skew it in a favourable position for their causes. Political parties as well ( gerimandering)

Broadband is the perfect example. The private market has failed the US so far. At the beginning, we led the world in broadband deployment. But by 2004, we ranked an embarrassing 13th. There are many places, like Philadelphia, where service is lacking. And there are many places, like San Francisco, where competition is lacking. The result of the duopoly that currently defines "competition" is that prices and service suck. We're the world's leader in Internet technology - except that we're not.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.03/view.html?pg=5

This article is a good example how various interactions and pressures arise and "wrestle" for advantage. Strong viable socities have checks and balances in place and need constant tending as conditions and technology changes.

Air at one time did not seem an issue - now clean air is - top down or bottom up - leadership is required to move society forward.
As the world shrinks individual space and freedom gets harder to "seal off" from the interactions of the other components.

I'm sure the the first farmers tapping the Ogallala thought it would go on forever........it doesn't.....so "others" across six states come into play with your "freedoms".

That's why that aquifer is iconic for this kind of discussion as it brings so many competing societal components into the picture right up to the State level and to some degree the national level.

From small farmer to conglomerate to rancher to environmentalist to state governors - the "interaction" and "principles" in dealing with the Ogallala resource are varied and intertwined in a Gordian knot that exemplifies issues facing our societies.

No simple nostrum or linear assessment of "priorities" will serve to deal with complexity of this sort. Checks and balances amongst the competing forces and an understanding of the interaction will help.

For the individual there is always choice........just as there are always consequences to those choices whether family interaction or institutional.

Some existential reading might help clarify the "individual" and "freedom" on a personal level.

From our view up here - hard won individual freedoms in the US are being lost in the fog of your "national security" nonsense. :rolleyes:

I'm just curious man of how you would rank them. Put your own definitions to the words. Just rank those 4.

I don't think your long post of constantly changing thought with a final I don't like americans really convinced me of anything. You could just say you disapprove with my simplification.

I don't think your long post of constantly changing thought with a final I don't like americans really convinced me of anything....

Not speaking for anyone else here, I just want to point out that my constant 'American-bashing' is not in any way meant to denigrate American people. I have a lot of friends in the US, and my experience while living in the US was that the people I met were remarkably warm and friendly.

I like Americans. It's just your current government I can't stand.

Cheers

I appreciate that bryanc. I just don't see how this thread already has a post about disapproval of the US. is it because I am from the US. If someone else had started this thread would that have happened. Doubt it.

It looks like the thread is pretty much ruined. I got some people to answer though. I thought it was an interesting thought.

" ... is it because I am from the US. If someone else had started this thread would that have happened. Doubt it. ..."

Check the archives. If there's any hint of politics involved, there's a post about America. Guaranteed. And sometimes it takes over the thread. Were you here 4 years ago?

Don't take it personally. As I said before, say whatever you want here. Ignore whomever you want, and reply to whomever you want.

Dude you are discussing "fundamentals" and speaking of "liberty" and "personal freedom" etc.

America USED to stand for a lot of those concepts.........currently it looks from the outside more like a police state in the making.

To discuss"fundamentals" you need reference points and at least some reasonable definitions. "Freedom" is a real fuzzy concept without any references.

It would mean different things at different times and places.

Need reference points. Is personal freedom the ability to get on a plane without identification - we've mostly lost that.
Is it being able t take off and fly your own plane where you want - with some caveats we still have that.

Part of the problem is with your question - it's like saying which is "better" - a van or a sportscar?

Without a "reference" or "context' it's a meaningless comparison of two different things.

Freedom or justice :confused:

How would you rank these four? I am putting them in my own order

Freedom - Individual Freedom
Liberty - National Independence
Peace - absence of large scale warfare
Justice - Social Justice, equality of outcomes Depends. In this Bush era of fascism triumphant, all those terms are slippery. The right-wing definition of freedom seems to be freedom from social restraint, taxation, and legal limits on exploitation. Liberty seems to mean "independence, as long as you do things our way." As for peace, remember what Tacitus said about his fellow Romans:
"The Romans make a desert, and they call it peace." Does Justice really entail equality of outcomes, or just equality of opportunity?

As if pre Bush these terms had so much traction and all of the sudden Since 2001 freedom, liberty, peace, justice became unintelligible.

How you define the words is half the battle. What they mean to you is half the curiosity. Try it, make a judgement. Nobody will hold you to it. Walk on the wild side. What does justice mean to you and how important is it? Go for man!!! :D

Come ON!

Maybe you will learn something about yourself.

I am already thinking about putting Justice ahead of peace. Gorguide makes a convincing argument. Gorguide shows wisdom in all his/her posts.


Peace?
Freedom?
Justice?

Liberty?

Eggs
Zoo Plankton
Cards
Shinto

Meaningless out of context.

Pick YOUR most important one and define what it is for you in relation to what you currently experience as a US citizen dwelling in the State of Oregon.

THEN there is some context.

Justice might be fairly straight forward - equality of all persons before the law in theory - gender, wealth and colour blind.
Caveats for the real world.......equal access....equal treatment????

Peace??......freedom from unjust interference in personal or national affairs and having a reliable method of resolving disputes without resort to violence ( see justice).

Freedom from.....??
Freedom to......??

Fill in the blanks - meaningless without context.

The above are all intertwined
••••

Liberty??? :confused: - patriotic pablum term, relief from sea duty??....hardly relevant.

Zooplankton - I'm assuming they are probably pretty important ecologically
Eggs - I eat them regularly for breakfast
Cards - Because it would be more fun than learning shinto
Shinto - see above

Dudireno...


Please understand that Macdoc...like some others around here...are STILL mired in some twisted version of the long vanished late-sixties anti-war, anti-Nixon mindset. I honestly think that a BUNCH of them are still actively protesting the VietNam conflict! While wringing their hands and fretting about the "military-industrial complex" that is about to take away all of our freedoms and turn us all into a modern fascist "Nazi-state". :eek:

They do this, while actively championing any and ALL socialist left/lib governments BTW. Here at home, or elsewhere... (??????)

I'm not entirely sure WHY this is...but I suspect that it has something to do with the carefully-directed political programming that was drilled into them in their formative college years.

So...they are still stuck on this now forgotten theme. Like a broken record. Even though this is not actually the sixties anymore. The whole world has rotated away from this long-past social stance. WE have all moved ON from these failed ideals, wayyy out here in the twenty-first century:

But some people here seem to be still stuck in the same old groove. Still fighting a fight that has long since been lost. Unable to leap into the future. KInd of sad, really.(

Take it all for what it really IS. And understand where it really COMES from.

It's not actually worth any sort of outrage. Or even a posted comment, for that matter. But it IS good for a chuckle or two! ;)

Check it out.... and see for yourself.

The past is dead. We are living in the present. The future is only a single wakeup away. :

And NONE of the present or future has any sort of left/lib reality atached to it. That stuff is DEFINITELY a part of the past.

Trust me on this. ;) :D